100% agreed. Such a move would demonstrate GM has learned nothing since 2002.

Some simple market research would bear out the demand for a modest V8 as an optional base car motor or its own mid-level model.

I just can't believe, with the costs of the GENIV motors so spread out across platforms, the fact they are easy to package physically, lighter than many DOHC V6s, and with DOD competitive in MPG with most high output V6, that GM would even be thinking about a mid level V6 scenario. The car's already packaged for a V8....

This is a CAMARO people, lets remember that. GM REMEMBER THAT. If a mid-level V6 even beings to approach the cost of a 5.3 V8, and my guess is it would surpass that cost considerably, then why would it even be discussed?

I keep going back to cost....the 5.3 fits in with no modifications, because its physically identical to the HP V8 externally. The only change needed would be a smaller set of injectors and a PCM tune.

However, a mid-level V6 is likely not going to share architecture with the base V6...so now you're looking at having to engineer 3 completely unique powertrains into the car.

V8s are popular again...we're seeing them hit big time in the 300C and Magnum/Charger. Why would we even be thinking about NOT capitalizing on that trend?

 

To the people who think the 5.3 is a bad idea, I ask you...

1) What is so bad about having 325hp available IN YOUR BASE MODEL?
2) What would be so bad about having a 5.3 V8 that runs on 87 octane that with DoD could get, what? 32 MPG? 33 MPG?? with an M6...
3) If the car weighs 3,600 lbs, the power-to-weight ratio will be 11.07. An LS1 F body was 10.96, or 1% better. I think it was Russ who said the 5.3 will not accelerate like an LS1 due to weight. I say PROVE IT. What the HELL is the matter with this 5.3? I drove our GXP on Saturday...it too weighs about 3,650. With an A4, it screams. Imagine it with an M6 or a paddle-shifted A6!!! It will run at or near LS1 times. My "inferior" LT1 is damn fast enough, thanks...

$25k...325hp 5.3....32-33 MPG highway...projected 0-60 in low 5s...what's not to love?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

Here's some blasphemy for you...

I am as die-hard an enthusiast as anyone on this board. I bleed GM blue. My 5th gen (as long as they give me what I want...if not, I'll be adding a 3rd to the garage) will be my 4th F body. Know what???

I'd rather have a 325-350hp car that runs on 87 octane, gets 33 MPG highway, and sells for $26k, than a 425hp, 28 MPG car that runs on 93 and costs $30k, because that's what I can afford, and WHAT MAKES SENSE FOR ME. Also, I guarantee that the SS model will sell at $30k. A $25-26k V6? I might as well buy a damn G6, thanks

 

Also keep in mind most buyers want the top model but most buyers cannot affords the top model.

A cheap V8 base Camaro opens the Pony car market back up to droves of young buyers, people who would otherwise to go V6 imports...People for whom V8 performance would otherwise be unattainable.

There is something to be said for hooking people on your brand while they are young...they will buy from you their whole lives.

A Camaro that that everybody wants but can't afford is no good, and a Camaro that everybody can afford but no one wants is equally worthless.

 

Which is EXACTLY why HP shouldnt be dumbed down.

 

Yeah but then you run off non-enthusiasts.

I don't think the majority of 89-92 V8 Rally Sport buyers were kids wanting to go fast.

Plus why have a $35K 425hp super version if you are also selling a 400hp 25K car? You're back to just having 1 model, which makes this whole argument moot.

The whole point is there's a need for more than one V8 at more than one power level and more than one price. And those prices and power levels need to be legitimately differentiated, not just a hood and wheels and a cold air kit at a $3000 premium.

 

A 25k 400HP car? Id be all over that! So would alot of other people here.

Im saying for each trim level give them the most car for the money at that trim level. If a 3##HP 5.3 can fill a market cheaper than the 400HP LS2 car do it. But dont take away from those motors just for the sake of doing it. I hadnt considered they could pull it off like 4th Gen. I would probably be more apt to take the 25k car. Speaking of women buying Mustangs. Arent they using the same motor for GT and Premium? Same thing they did for the LX and GT. The more I think about it the less sense dumbing down power if it isnt cheaper to build and sell. The whole point of the car is power and speed no matter how much you can afford. Of course thats just my opinion

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for both a 400 and a 425hp version.

 

Obviously I cannot prove anything, seeing the car doesn't exist yet, but I would bet very large sums of money that if the 5th gen comes out with a 5.3 making 325-350hp, it will not run with a 4th gen, especially from a stop. Big bucks on the IRS hurting the 5th gens launch compared to a 4th gen, and even if the car weighs 3600lbs (not sounding likely unless we are talking about v6s here) it is still going to have a worse power to weight. I don't know what you think a 4th gen weighs, but the v8 coupes come in at anywhere from 3350-3400lbs, depending on options. A car that is 200lbs heavier, with roughly the same peak power (assuming the 5.3 makes 350hp, even though everyone else was talking 325 earlier), launching on an IRS, is not going to outrun a 4th gen. Sorry. There is a reason that the LS1 GTOs run behind the LS1 F-Bodies.

Your GXP is not a Camaro, it is a Grand Prix. There is nothing wrong with the 5.3, I just don't think we should see it as a mid level motor in a present day Camaro, ever.I am all for a mid level v8, as long as it is making close to 400 horses. If there was to be some kind of base 325hp v8 offered that can just be dumped into the crappy v6 to keep it cheap, that is fine with me. I do NOT want to see a mid-level Camaro, priced at the pricepoint of a Mustang GT, making Mustang GT power levels. I still have not heard one bit of good evidence besides people's internet heresay that the 4th gen's power levels had anything to do with the car's death. GM has an advantage over Ford with their much superior powertrains, and I see absolutely no sane reason as to why not play that ace. Mark my words, if we see a 400hp 5th gen at the Mustang GT's price, we will see GM advertise the hell out of it.

I am glad you like your LT1, and it was plenty fast enough for its day. In the present day though, I would imagine there are many ethusiasts out there whose hunger would not be sated by a 275hp v8. I know mine wouldn't.

 

I am glad your formula makes sense to you, after all it is your formula. I just don't think it makes sense for GM. The cost of the 6L (or 6.2, or whatever it will be) is likely to be pretty close to the same cost of a 5.3. Z284ever mentioned 400hp at $28k, not $30k, so there isn't that much of a gap between your $26k price limit. As for a car that runs on 87 octane, and gets 33 MPG highway, this is a Camaro. If those are your priorities, you should look elsewhere. The 5th gen is probably not going to be some means of extremely practically transportation as alot of people on this board seem to want it to be. I would bet on a cramped rear seat again.

I am not really into the idea of the mid trim car being a high output v6 either, but this is a little ridiculous. You would rather take a 240hp FWD grocery getter over a (theoritical) 320-330hp RWD v6?

 

Thank you.

 

No problem. I just dont get it. I think even the V6 should be beefy. Not V8 beefy but for a V6.

 

The best reason to have a midlevel motor is so that you can charge more for the high end one

I agree that horsepower was not what killed the 4th Gen. The Engine in a Box analogy was right on, and was really the only feature that sold the car by the end.

 

Well from my persepective 4th gen is an extreeme vehicle. I dont have to tell you The front to back weight ratio is great. The areo dynamics are better than just about any car on the road. The power was excellent as well. I dont think anyone is saying that the car didnt perform. In the end the day to day maintence and utility trade off was too much for me.

Why am I telling you what you already know? Imagine the utility trade off only youre not getting as much power on the 4th gen Z28. Dumbing the LS1 down on purpose in order to try to get women who most of which would have at least considered the V6 if they were interested in the first place. The 4th Gen Z28 could have been produced with less HP so women wouldnt feel so intimidated but I would argue GM would have lost the sales to the target audience that didnt mind the trade offs as long as they got performance, as well as women who didnt get the utility.

I think its relevant because having a lower budget doesnt make you any less of an enthusiast. I think every trim level should be the best bang for THAT buck.

If 250HP is what the V6 base is producing great. Maybe a turbo or supercharged performance option on that give you 290 or so. I think thats where Women and those "intimidated" by HP would choose this car.

A 5.3 type if chosen for the car first of all needs to be cheaper than any LS2. If it can produce 325-350 at the same cost and I am considering that trim level then thats what I want not less. I have to ask, Is the 5.3 a good motor?

Point is even if you buy the lowest V6 and still feel you got the biggest bang for your buck at every trim level to me that puts the car on more peoples lists of cars to consider.

 

Its funny--the people who are against the 5.3L aren't even going to buy one so I am not sure what there interest is.

Other then they think GM will have a 400hp Camaro for the same price as a 4.6L Mustang GT--thta makes far less power. Or that thee should be a S/C V6--like that will be cheaper!! (then a 5.3L)

And then what if GM decideds that the 400hp car need some upgrades--bigger brakes, suspension, different trans--that would all add money.


Their arguement of cost does not wash either. Look back to thirdgens. A 305 TPI and 350 TPI--I bet they cost damn near the same to make.


But they charged more for the 350, plus you had to pay for the mandatory automatic/disc brakes, oil cooler, 16" tires. And people paid it. In fact 44% of all IROCs had this combo.

I never liked it---305 TPI/5 speed with 3.45s was far more fun for me.

I am not intimidated by hp either, thanks. I doubt they will do a 25K 400hp car and I live in a place were we have winter. I am just not a rich guy either--just an everyday joe who wants a V8 for the same as a Mustang GT.