While I agree with you in theory, the reality is there is a difference. When we bought our new Tahoe in 2002, I researched it and it was about $2000 to upgrade from the 4.8 to the 5.3. The difference in torque was only about 15 lb-ft so I made the choice to go with the 4.3 and save a couple grand. (Not to mention the MPG savings, which isn't much.)

 

Pacer,

I was using the 4.8 example as purely an example of what we could have done back in '98...not now. Consider the 5.7 was rated at 310 back then...270 as a 4.8 base model would have been nice. Today, the 5.3 makes up to 320...when I mentioned the 4.8, I was talking in 1998 terms. I would imagine an '09 would most definitely have a 5.3 as a base V8 option...

As for the GTA from '88? They never WAS a TBI GTA, my friend. All were 350s, unless you did a delete option for the 305 TPI (and who the hell ever did that, unless it was '90-'92 and you wanted t-tops????). Consider in '87-'88, your 350 TPI was choked down to 220 or so in the 'Birds versus 230-235 in the IROCs, plus most GTAs weighed in over 3,600 lbs if you look at the road tests. All of a sudden, your 3,250 lb Formula 350 TPI could run and hide from a GTA that literally weighed 400 lbs more much of the time.

I have seen 350 IROCs range from 5.8 ('90 in Motor Trend) to 6.8 seconds 0-60, while GTAs I've seen anywhere from about 6.4 to the 7.4 you mentioned. Amazing the range on those 3rd gen 350 cars, depending on options, gearing etc.

If I chicken out on the 5th, the only 3rd gens I will consider would be a G92 305/M5 or G92 350...I need to at least have a chance against that n/a Cobalt SS in the next lane

 

Correct no Trans Am GTA TBIs but there were Trans Am TBI's. And at the time they were virtually idenitcal looking.

and you'll never stand a chance against a NA Cobalt SS!!



J/K! My 2.4L SS is a match for 205hp 305 TPI auto but thats it.

 

Since JE already went into 3rd Gen detail I won't. But you're wrong, we'll agree twice. (new record for sure!) I never understood why the TBI was allowed in Z28's and IROC-Z's and wouldn't want that type of thing in the 5th Gen. Every engine needs to be a strong performer against it's competition and no V8's just because they're V8's. The public wasn't crazy for that idea either, TBI IROC's are really difficult to find.

 

Sorry if I took it wrong . The thread was proving most people opted for the less than stellar V8 by a large margin in the 3rd gen years , just to have a V8 in the RS model . And my comment as pertained to yours was the crop of possibly base engines that coulda been used as a optional base V8 in the 4th gen years was far more worthy than the 305 TBI and woulda been quiker than the 3800 as well .

 

Well then the news is even worse, since the GTA time listed is not mine, and then could only come from a TPI car...

"How's about this one:
1988 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA 7.4 15.9"

I was hoping that was a TBI 305, and not a TPI car... but apparently it HAS to be TPI.

 

Apparently, if you can crack a 15 with it, yours is quicker.

 

I feel 3rd gens are regarded by so many nowadays as slow piles of garbage because there are so many 305s out there, TBI or TPI. This may have helped the sales alot in the 80s, but I would imagine it does hurt the image of a "muscle car" to have so many slow versions of it out there.

I think for an entry level v8 to be considered that there must be a balance struck between sales gained and image (translation, a base v8 must have at least some performance viability).

 

I agree that's why if there is a base V8 it should be the 5.3L with ~300 hp at the wheels that is

 

The TA could have TBI, the GTA couldn't. It's still pretty easy to do that time with the little cammed, heavy, non-G92, (2.77 or 2.73 gears) Auto, LB9 TA or GTA. The Third Gen had great variation, but some of it was too much. They let you have the look/handling you wanted without the power if you choosed. If you wanted fast in the Third Gen regular production you bought an L98 G92 or LB9 M5 G92 IROC-Z28 or Formula. That was the way to go.

 

I agree...I wouldn't want a 325hp 5.3 available in my Z28. But as an option on my base model? Sure! No, there were not many TBI IROCs, but as I said above, how many TBI RSs were there????

And THAT is the whole point of my argument...

Man, all this talk has me wanting to skip onto eBay and go third gen hunting I had an aforementioned 305 TPI AT '89 Formula for about 5 months back in 2002, and sold it after aborting a mechanical restoration that was sinking me financially. With grad school looming, it made no sense to keep it. I will say this...despite being 13 years old and having 105k on it, I made it mechanically perfect and flogged it for 2-3 months. Those TPI 305s, while gutless above 4k, can be a blast around town and cruising around. They corner great, and to this day, nothing looks as good as one. While my search for a third gen will center around the G92 cars, I have to say I remember fondly bombing around town in my lowly 190hp/2.73 geared/A4 Formula...it wasn't the fastest, but it sure was fun.

Meanwhile, a base model V8 these days HAS to be able to run 0-60 in 5.5, or a tick better. If we have G6 GTPs for less $$ running it in 6 flat? This should be more than do-able

 

As a new base V8 you need to look at things in context. I think alot of you are missing these points.

The base V8, the 305 TBI in IROCs, RS, Formulaa and Trans Ams were slow--even compared to non sports cars. It was not the equal in to a Mustangs base V8 car--the LX, in either perfromance or price.

But a modern day base V8 with over 310hp cam match or exceed a Mustang GT--the question how close in price can Chevy get it. Not to mention blow off the vast majority of the cars your likley to encounter.

My point is base V8 does not carry the same stigma as it once did. The hp will be almost double as it was in 80's.

Thse hp wars are bit crazy. Somehow over 300hp is real low these days!

I had a TBI IROC--it was painful and slow. A new base V8 would not be. Only RS cars should have got this engine. It did hurt the brand image of IROCs, T/As and Formulas.

A new base V8 could not hurt the image.

 

you'd think so. Friend of mine has a 91 Trans Am 305 TPI/A4/2.73. Light on options and only mod is an exhaust.

She runs 15.0@92mph (corrected)
My 2.4L SS ran a best of 15.4@90-91mph. But I am still trying to master launching a FWD manual! Plus the car wasn't totally broken in....I am getting 2.5 sec 60 ft times!

Intersting note since 305 TBI cars ae being brought up.
I raced that 91 Trans Am in my 305 TBI/A4/2.73

With an open element, trans go shift kit, Corvette servo and 4.3L V6 stall I could walk that T/A to 35-45mph. After that she passed me like I was standing still.

Zero top end

 

305fan,
How do you like your new SS? I have to admit, for the $$$, those seem like a sweet little car. What is the 2.4 like? If I wasn't in the running for a 3rd or 5th in 2 more years, I have to admit I might trade the GP on one. I was playing around with an '02 Sunfire I took in on trade a few weeks back, with the old 2.4 twin cam and a 5 speed. I thought to myself "wow, if the new Cobalt SS is this fun in a straight line, has a far better interior and exterior, and better handling, it must be a helluva fun car to drive."

I've always gravitated towards bigger cars, but a day spent bombing around in that has made me rethink that!

 

Overall I like the car very much. I about 6000 miles on it with no problems. If I take it easy I can get about 28MPG US in city drving. The sound system is very good too--but I am no audio freak.

The 2.4L is a really nice engine. I am surprised at the press for not really talking about it. Spritually, its the succesor to the old HO Quad 4s.

Those redlined about 6850rpm but did not have balance shafts and was very thrashy engine.

The Ecotec 2.4L redlines at 6750 with balnce shafts. Its a very smooth engine, with strong midrange and it pulls good right up to redline. Plus the getrag 5 speed and clutch are very nice. In some ways better then a honda trans.

The engine shares some parts with the 2.0 S/C--like forged rods, engine oil cooler and piston oil jet squirters. But the 2.4L has the VVT, 10.4 to 1 cr and a more powerful computer.

From what I have ben able to determine the suspension is almost exactly the same as the ION Redline, so it handles very well.

GM Perfromnace divison put this package together. Obviously its mostly parts bin stuff and not as intesnsive as theri other cars but I think they did good job while keeping the price down.

I am happy to drive an SS. Maybe with a CAI and some better launching I bust into the high 14's (corrected) later this spring.

Next car though I do want more power! A 5.3L Camaro or Tubo Cobalt would do.