It is a violation of law. it also sets precedence that any lender can be deprived of their property for any politically expedient reason. Law is what separates us from the animals. To violate the law, is to set the course for chaos.

Why would any lender give money to any US car manufacture when the government can violate bankruptcy law and take the lender's property?

Why would companies like Ford bother to make future investments through private capital at high interest when it now knows it can simply wait for the government to save them?

Everyone suffers when the government violates the law, not just some Wall Street suit which you so much despise. Remember it is those disgusting power-brokers that fund private enterprise. Thats what separates America from the rest of the world; private capital, private industry.

Never rationalize theft. It does not matter if you steal from the rich or from the poor, the crime is the same.

 

I understand what you are saying. Really I do. But the term theft is relative isn't it?

Given how Wall Street has habitually taken tax payer's money in the past to fund its means, given how Wall Street has basically raped America of all its basic wealth... my care factor stands in the way of my rationale pertaining to 'the law' on this occasion.

Some have a slightly different view of the world. Anyway, i don't want to sidetrack this discussion... so I'll opt out now.

 

Really now? No one wants the rights to Chevrolet, Cadillac, Corvette? Come on. You bet they do. Heck there are companies bidding for Hummer, Saab, and Saturn. Imagine what Chevy and Caddy are worth to the right buyer. Imagine what it would do to our national pride, national security and economic fabric if the 'right buyer' were from China

Fine, great. Who's stepping in to provide the key FUNDING to fuel the CP 11 (or other options) for GM? Only our government has. I'm not a fan of all the baggage that's sure to come with that... and I know there will be problems from it. But without the intervention by Uncle Sam, there is no doubt, GM and Chrysler would have already been chopped up and sold off in little pieces to... whomever. I'll take 'Uncle Sam' over 'whomever' any day.

 

First, theft is not relative.

Second, wall Street has not raped America of all its basic wealth. Private lenders and investment firms on Wall Street are one of the reasons why the US is the worlds economic superpower.

Third, not many firms were recipients of government funds. The few firms that did receive funds were not given the cash, they were loaned the money. All of the investment firms on Wall Street did not want and are currently trying to give back all the money. Incredibly the US government is refusing to accept the money back. The government would rather exert control over these firms than be paid back.

Having a different view of the world is not the equivalent of being ignorant of reality. Your care factor is directly proportional to your knowledge factor and both are in extreme deficit. You typify the voting American public, outraged and ignorant.

 

Apparently so - especially if you are of the same political persuasion of those that are doing it.

 

Except I'm not American... and America is in huuuuuge debt. If that isn't a transfer of wealth, I dunno what is?

 

None of the lenders wanted liquidation, and some of the major lenders have operations tied to the auto industry. Steven Rattner, the chief of Obama's auto task force, purposely kept lending banks out of negotiations with Fiat and the UAW.

Chrysler as late as last year asked JP Morgan, Citi, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley for more loans. These firms already held 70% of Chrysler's debt; they all said no. Chrysler then appealed to Bush Which gave them $4 billion; GM got 13.4 at the same time.

February of this year, Chrysler asked the lenders to forgive the outstanding private loans by almost $2 billion to $5 billion. However none of the lenders wanted to take over or liquidate Chrysler.

 

What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

PM sent.

 

In regards to the fate of the Camaro:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-...ble-bankruptcy

Doesn't look good.

 

They're obviously not worth all that much. If they really wanted them, they'd already be making bids. The current market cap of GM is $879 million, that is you could buy every single outstanding share and thus own GM in its entirety, factories, brands everything, for <$900 million and just flush what you didn't want. The fact that nobody is exactly beating down the doors is telling. Have I missed a company who's expressed interest in building cars for a loss?

As much as you and I and pretty much everybody else on this site loves the GM brands, the rest of the buying public isn't so enamored with them. If they were, GM wouldn't have had to subsist on GMAC mortages for the last 10 years and would not have destroyed nearly a half a trillion dollars in capital in the last 20 years, with almost nothing to show for it.

IF, and thats a really big IF, GM manages to sell Hummer and Saturn, I will be completely and utterly shocked if its anything more than a giveaway like when Daimler divested themselves of Chrysler to Cerberus. Saab is the odd man out in that it might actually be worth something...

Oh the horror, we might have "chinamen" building cars here in the US. What horrors await next? Am I to sit here and let Germans, Japanese and Koreans build cars here too?

Seriously though, it will likely do the exact same thing as any of the other numerous times that overseas companies have bought or merged with US companies, which is to say it won't have any appreciable affect.

This is not 1945. Our national pride, security and economic fabric don't hinge on heavy industry in its entirety, much less 2 individual companies in a single sub-section of industry.

I don't know who could provide it, but I do know that nobody has really tried to get it. If the propsed restructuring plan is that bad and if lenders think the prospects of a GM turn around are that bleak, perhaps it is time to break it up and give someone else a turn managing its constituent ecnomic resources. Again the relative ease with which economic resources are redistributed for management by others through our bankruptcy process is one of the things that makes our economy so vibrant and robust...

That being said why is everybody so afraid of the auto companies being broken up? Are you scared of new management or what? Its not like the current management have done such a bang up job. Maybe if we keep things as they are, GM can destroy another $500 billion in capital.

Or are you afraid whoever buys them is going to stop building cars? If so that's an irrational fear. If perchance you were able to find a buyer, who is going to sink the money into pieces of a car company, including the accompaning factories and tooling, who isn't going to build cars?

By taking the position that GM/Chrysler have to remain a single entity and that this is the way to do it, you're ultimately causing long term harm to our industry and economy as a whole for nothing but short term stability. Allowing the resources contained within to continue to be mis-managed will do nothing but destroy more capital and ultimately, capital is the fuel on which and economy runs...

Something else, that everybody who wants to "stick it to the wall street man" needs to realize, is that the wall street man, is you me and everybody else who's got a mutual fund, state pension plan or other investments that bought bonds. Anybody here have an Oppenheimer mutual fund? They were one of the original objectors to the Chrysler deal that got steamrolled by the gov't. If you do have an Oppenheimer fund, congratulations, you just got screwed for the benefit of the UAW and "sticking it to the wall street man."

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/compan...54A6FT20090511

 

 

You know what mr nova, I'm sick of the Wall Street guy telling us how the world should be run. Not everything is about finance. If it were then your country ought to be paying its bills by now. Imagine what that would do to your relatively affluent lifestyle?

All I want is for GM to be fixed so we can stop talking about Wall Street and all their agendas! That's right, I like cars, believe it or not!

 

Actually, no... that's called a 'hostile takeover', which is usually accompanied by a 'poison pill'. Meaning, GM is clearly not for sale and if anyone decided to try and buy it the controlling stakeholders would make that party dearly sorry they did.
Oh the horror indeed. How about the horror of having no industrial infrstructure of our own to create and maintain a national arsenal? It's not 1945... but it's not 1807 either. We live in a world where there is still plenty of greed and evil around. We have no way of predicting future events; we might be in a large scale conventional war next year trying to save an ally in Asia-Pac. Now wouldn't it be awkward if we needed China's help to build our armor, tanks, APC's, mobile ballistic artillery platforms, light military vehicles? "Oh, yes one more item Mr. Chinese Ambassador. We need that delivery of 150 armored personnel carriers by next week please... since we're planning a major assault against the PRC to get back the coastal plains of Australia. What, there's a delay???? "

Don't think it can happen in 2010? Remember what Plato said. "Only the Dead have seen the end of war."

(Think China is a fuzzy harmless Panda bear? Here's some reading homework 4u: http://www.military.com/news/article...er-killer.html )

We need a healthy American heavy industry... and every now and then we need active national policy and involvement to keep it viable.