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What Can The Z/28 Be

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Old 07-22-2008 | 01:14 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by notgetleft
Or to use the retro example, exactly what % of production was the first gen z28. i honestly don't know off the top of my head, but IIRC, the numbers were not large.
602 in 1967 (<1%)
7,199 in 1968 (~3%)
20,302 in 1969 (~8%)

In total 28,103 or ~4% first gen Camaros were Z28s.

However, if you believe ebay roughly 50% of all '69 Camaros were Z28s and the rest were Yenkos.

P.S. I honestly think 5,000 units is a little low and the market can support 10,000 the first year and let market demand drive the remaining years.
Old 07-22-2008 | 01:23 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by notgetleft
And ~$50k 2 ton+ cars that get worse gas milage then pick up trucks are selling like hot cakes right? Sure the SRT8 and GT500 might get big mark ups, but that's because they're limited production.

Or to use the retro example, exactly what % of production was the first gen z28. i honestly don't know off the top of my head, but IIRC, the numbers were not large. Also, the thirdgen 1LE package was a very low % of production.

Development costs for what i'm talking about are not necessarily high. And like i said, if you make the items available in the GMPP catalog like ford did with the motorsport stuff, you can get back a lot of the investment selling it over the counter too.

I guess you'd rather see Z28 dead then have it return as what it should have always been, a limited production, hardcore racer package. If it sells in small numbers, then fine, at least you get the racer cred and keep the name alive in a MEANINGFUL way.
Look, you can argue it if you want, but it's been borne out again and again and again...

The hardcore performance market (the guys that'll check the "AC Delete" box on an option sheet) IS NOT enough of a market to keep a vehicle platform alive. Only a handful of people want that type of car.

The proof, at the end of the day, is in the pudding of this car.

Furthermore, it doesn't take a Harvard MBA to realize that the guys who want the biggest, baddest motor out there have the $$$ to pay for the options - and guess what... they're gonna if they want that motor.

Take a hard look at a Z06 sometime. The car is very highly optioned.
Old 07-22-2008 | 02:45 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by PacerX
Look, you can argue it if you want, but it's been borne out again and again and again...

The hardcore performance market (the guys that'll check the "AC Delete" box on an option sheet) IS NOT enough of a market to keep a vehicle platform alive. Only a handful of people want that type of car.

The proof, at the end of the day, is in the pudding of this car.

Furthermore, it doesn't take a Harvard MBA to realize that the guys who want the biggest, baddest motor out there have the $$$ to pay for the options - and guess what... they're gonna if they want that motor.

Take a hard look at a Z06 sometime. The car is very highly optioned.
I never said no AC, sorry if you thought i implied that when i said "no option" I meant more like, no sunroof or subwoofer premium sound system.

But whatever you're splitting hairs here. The point is, The market for a >500hp 2ton+ ultra cruiser that gets teen mpg is nearly dead, at least dead enough to suspend the program. However, seems to me there is still a market for a z06-lite type Z28 car. Keep the LS3, but give it what i already said, at the minimum, lightweight hood, wheels, recaro racing seats like the cobalt SS, factory hurst shifter form the accessory catalog and some specific springs / shocks. You could take it a step further with lightweight fenders and trunk lid and maybe some upgraded brakes too depending upon the exact price point vs. weight. And of course, a catback and CAI from the GMPP catalog would be easy additions too.

And if you really think you have to keep the sunroof and 12 speaker stereo in the car to sell it, so be it. You're mising the forest for the trees if you want to bicker about that. My point is, everything i mentioned is already, or should be available from GM already as dealer installed accessories.

I mean, JFC, look at how easy it is for ford to do special edition mustangs like the bullit and gt350 following that exact simple formula of springs, shocks, gears, catback, CAI and handheld programmer tune with some stick on stripes and / or badge delete with different wheels. Why can't GM expand that concept and add a lightweight hood and seats for such a "hallowed" badge as Z28?
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:14 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by 81Z28355
Let’s say hypothetically GM was going to build a Supercharged Z/28 Shelby GT500 slayer, but now has changed direction or is waiting to see how sales of the available cars go before releasing it. I for one was looking forward to a car that could hang with a Shelby and with a pulley change could put down 600Hp. I am sure a car like that would cost around 42K like the GT 500 does. But let’s say GM has decided to change direction for the Z/28 and would like to offer a lighter car with a NA motor instead. So if the SS Camaro’s base price is $29,995 (hypothetically) and we are willing to pay 40K for a base Z/28 how much lighter can GM make the car and how much NA HP can they put into it? What kind of performance do you think a car like this can throw down? How light could they make it for an additional 10K? Can the LS3 put out another 50HP and would that be enough?
This is all hypothetical so the winky club can put some input in I would think. Or maybe some engineer could let us know what is possible and what a dream is.
The Z28 should be essentially a new version of the 1-LE package.

To be honest, I am appalled at the idea the Z28 was going to be a high priced GT500 competitor. An overpowered, extremely limited production monstrosity for well off Camaro fans and collectors for car shows, occasional track runs, and climate controled garages. What I found even more appalling was so many people who would never have one bemoaning the idea that it might not reach production. This type of car IS NOT a Z28.... and it never was!

The Z28 should be what it's history and heritage has almost always been: a quick car at home on a race course. Basically what the 1LE was later.

Not only special suspension rates, but power steering coolers, brake cooling systems, special handling parts, a tougher rear end, upgraded brakes, things that enable you to take it to a course and really go to town without something breaking, overheating, or falling off, or costing more than a few grand as a package.

If GM were to create a LSA powered Camaro, charge $40K+ for it, make less than 5K per year, all combined to virturally ensure not only dealer scalping but rarity on par with proven Elvis sightings, it should be called ZL1. That model designation's history would be dead on.
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:25 PM
  #20  
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I spoke with Scott, albeit VERY briefly, the other evening and brought up the concept that "I" thought the Z/28 program had lost it's focus IF they had intended to make it a SC'd GT500 killer.......as in what's already been posted here and many times previous, that AIN'T what we wanted.....

Personally, I'd like to get our heads together, now that we have a small window of opportunity, and come up with our vision of what the Z/28 is SUPPOSED to be and present this directly to Scott, Cheryl Tom, John and more importantly, Doug Houlihan.


Now, anyone got an educated guess on what the premium would have been for the SC'd LS9??? That needs to be our price target....then we can guess at costs of what things like carbon fiber body components, coolers, brakes, seats, etc...might add up to. Then we can subtract things like content.....

Personally speaking, I'd much rather MY money go toward things like these instead of just another big ol' heavy, gas suckin' SC'd engine.....
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:27 PM
  #21  
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I'm with you Guy. I'd love to see them surprise us and have the Z/28 show up with all of the serious suspension components you mentioned - and perhaps some radical weight reduction (lightweight thin shell seats, no sound deadening, jettison anything non-essential that they could).
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:30 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Doug Harden
Now, anyone got an educated guess on what the premium would have been for the SC'd LS9??? That needs to be our price target....then we can guess at costs of what things like carbon fiber body components...
Funny you put this just as I was typing my other post. I was thinking about a carbon fiber (or even aluminum?) hood, front fenders, maybe roof, but was thinking that was unrealistically expensive. But yeah, if you're going to offset the cost of an LS9, throw 'em on there

I'd guess a weight reduction of a few hundred pounds would offer as much performance gain as a big gun motor - and probably provide better handling, too, with all of the aforementioned suspension components.
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:33 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by guionM
The Z28 should be essentially a new version of the 1-LE package.

To be honest, I am appalled at the idea the Z28 was going to be a high priced GT500 competitor. An overpowered, extremely limited production monstrosity for well off Camaro fans and collectors for car shows, occasional track runs, and climate controled garages. What I found even more appalling was so many people who would never have one bemoaning the idea that it might not reach production. This type of car IS NOT a Z28.... and it never was!

The Z28 should be what it's history and heritage has almost always been: a quick car at home on a race course. Basically what the 1LE was later.

Not only special suspension rates, but power steering coolers, brake cooling systems, special handling parts, a tougher rear end, upgraded brakes, things that enable you to take it to a course and really go to town without something breaking, overheating, or falling off, or costing more than a few grand as a package.
The Z28 should be everything you said, along with being a good 500 lbs lighter, and powered by a 500 hp LS7.
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:43 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by guionM
If GM were to create a LSA powered Camaro, charge $40K+ for it, make less than 5K per year, all combined to virturally ensure not only dealer scalping but rarity on par with proven Elvis sightings, it should be called ZL1. That model designation's history would be dead on.
I'll give you the "it shouldn't be called Z28" argument, but please quit saying the "ZL1" is the right designation. The ZL1 was never a RPO, it was a special order COPO. Furthermore, it was an aluminum big block built exclusively for drag racing and only 69 were built. The ZL1 is to drag racing what the Z28 was to road racing. To suggest it has anymore "history" on a modern day Chevy Camaro version of the Mustang GT500 than the Z28 does is ridiculous.

If not Z28, I'd rather see such a vehicle called Camaro SS-R. (Seriously. )

P.S. Another option might be "Camaro SS Supercharged".

Last edited by jg95z28; 07-22-2008 at 03:51 PM.
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:49 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Doug Harden
Now, anyone got an educated guess on what the premium would have been for the SC'd LS9??? That needs to be our price target....then we can guess at costs of what things like carbon fiber body components, coolers, brakes, seats, etc...might add up to. Then we can subtract things like content.....
I never expected the Camaro to get the LS9, but the LSA instead. That said, Procharger has a supercharger kit for the LS3 Corvette. I imagine by the time it hits the street, it won't take long for them to put a package together for the LS3 Camaro. Adding such a package to a loaded Camaro SS would create basically this theoretical top-dog Camaro we are talking about. When you figure in parts and installation, such an option might run $5-10k over a loaded Camaro SS.

Furthermore, I'd be open to the idea of GM offering a dealer installed supercharger option at some point. (Three winkies for emphasis.)
Old 07-22-2008 | 03:49 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by onebadponcho
The Z28 should be everything you said, along with being a good 500 lbs lighter, and powered by a 500 hp LS7.
There goes your weight savings. (Or are you suggesting an LS7 without the dry sump system.)
Old 07-22-2008 | 04:12 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Doug Harden
I spoke with Scott, albeit VERY briefly, the other evening and brought up the concept that "I" thought the Z/28 program had lost it's focus IF they had intended to make it a SC'd GT500 killer.......as in what's already been posted here and many times previous, that AIN'T what we wanted.....

Personally, I'd like to get our heads together, now that we have a small window of opportunity, and come up with our vision of what the Z/28 is SUPPOSED to be and present this directly to Scott, Cheryl Tom, John and more importantly, Doug Houlihan.


Now, anyone got an educated guess on what the premium would have been for the SC'd LS9??? That needs to be our price target....then we can guess at costs of what things like carbon fiber body components, coolers, brakes, seats, etc...might add up to. Then we can subtract things like content.....

Personally speaking, I'd much rather MY money go toward things like these instead of just another big ol' heavy, gas suckin' SC'd engine.....
I'm already on it. We should try and coordinate our efforts...
Old 07-22-2008 | 04:19 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Z284ever
I'm already on it. We should try and coordinate our efforts...
Guys, the die is cast.

That one has already been fired downrange.

The horse has left the barn.

Program timing at this point puts the car as basically already having been completed in design.

Body panel tooling is 52 weeks. If there are big enough changes coming to warrant different panels, they're tweaking now, and that's it.

Taking 500 lbs. out?

Maybe if you use dynamite to do it... or pull off an engineering miracle of the first order. The portliness is in the body structure, not the powertrain (for the most part... the 6-spd automatic is going to be heavy, and I highly doubt the Z28 is gonna get a live axle...).
Old 07-22-2008 | 04:23 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by PacerX
Guys, the die is cast.

That one has already been fired downrange.

The horse has left the barn.
I need more metaphors.
Old 07-22-2008 | 04:25 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Z284ever
I need more metaphors.
We've crossed the Rubicon...

The mossy stone has gathered downhill and crossed the bridge before it came to the end of the line.



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