What is it with PPL complaining about pricing?!?
02-20-2009 | 07:04 AM
#76
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 107
From the time the last 4th gen rolled off the assembly line till the first pre-prod. test drives this community "demanded" that the car be of substantially better quality than its predecessor. Now that we got what we wanted people are complaining that the car cost too much. Well what did you expect?!? As in all things in life, you get what you paid for. If you want something that is just as fast but cost less then you better damn well expect to make some sacrifices.
Yes, you can get a Mustang GT for substantially less than the Camaro SS but you are buying an inferior product in comparison. In 2011 or whenever the Mustang gets its full makeover then we'll have to see how it stacks up to the Camaro. If it is truly to be built with the quality and performance of the 5th gen. then you can't really expect it to come in for thousands less. That would be extremely foolish on your part.
Same goes for the Cobalt. Yes, you can get one and modify it to outrun the Camaro all the while costing less. From anything other than a purely performance aspect, this car pales in comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love the Cobalt SS, but it is nothing more than an entry level car. Besides this agrument is invalid anyway. I could find something much cheaper than the Cobalt SS and build it to blow the doors it and the Camaro in a purely performance viewpoint.
The truth is this car is priced right where its supposed to be (actually for the content offered in this car its cheaper than what I would have expected.) There is no other vehicle out there that can perform on par or offer the content that this car does for the same price. If you can find one then what are you complaining about? Go buy it.
BTW, this isn't a personal attack against Trybal but more so towards the general "It cost too much" audience.
Yes, you can get a Mustang GT for substantially less than the Camaro SS but you are buying an inferior product in comparison. In 2011 or whenever the Mustang gets its full makeover then we'll have to see how it stacks up to the Camaro. If it is truly to be built with the quality and performance of the 5th gen. then you can't really expect it to come in for thousands less. That would be extremely foolish on your part.
Same goes for the Cobalt. Yes, you can get one and modify it to outrun the Camaro all the while costing less. From anything other than a purely performance aspect, this car pales in comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love the Cobalt SS, but it is nothing more than an entry level car. Besides this agrument is invalid anyway. I could find something much cheaper than the Cobalt SS and build it to blow the doors it and the Camaro in a purely performance viewpoint.
The truth is this car is priced right where its supposed to be (actually for the content offered in this car its cheaper than what I would have expected.) There is no other vehicle out there that can perform on par or offer the content that this car does for the same price. If you can find one then what are you complaining about? Go buy it.
BTW, this isn't a personal attack against Trybal but more so towards the general "It cost too much" audience.
I never demanded more quality. The Camaro was never meant to be a luxury car. It was meant to go fast on a working man's budget.
If you want a fully loaded 1SS/2SS available to you with all the snazzy features and the 20-inch rims, more power to you. But, there is no BASE V8. That's my main point.
My personal feeling is that this incarnation of the car will not last long. It simply is not going to sell the way GM needs it to.
Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.
Last edited by TrybalRage; 02-20-2009 at 07:15 AM.
02-20-2009 | 08:04 AM
#77
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.
02-20-2009 | 03:16 PM
#78
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 524
From: Houston Area
You can't look at just the number of cylinders and brakes, either. You have to look at the cost of the heavier duty suspension, transmission, and other assorted things that go along with it. A more accurate comparison would really be 1LT to 1SS since the 1SS comes with things that aren't included on the LS, but are on the 1LT, so knock about $2k off of that difference as well. And, in the past, it was fairly common to use a $10k for every 100 HP rule of thumb. It's all in line.
02-20-2009 | 04:39 PM
#79
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 107
Even without the last sentence, that paragraph alone tells me that you probably should look deeper into how cars are built, how complicated it really is, and how critical the automotive industry is. None of it is actually that simple and if you think you are remotely safe and will not be affected if Detroit were to collapse, think again.
But you're also proving my point for me. Development is very expensive, yes. But that motor was already developed, it's not all-new for the Camaro.
As far as Detroit, would I be affected? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the automotive industry in this country is out-of-touch and financially diseased, and is now dragging the government into it's life support. It's disgusting.
Last edited by TrybalRage; 02-20-2009 at 04:44 PM.
02-20-2009 | 05:48 PM
#80
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
In addition to the the LS3 engine and the Brembo brakes, these include:
Heavier-duty transmission to handle the additional engine torque
Different (larger diameter) exhaust
Different suspension tuning
Engine oil cooler
20x8" front and 20x9" rear wheels instead of 18x8" all around, with matching larger tires
Six-way power driver's seat instead of 4-way manual (the seats themselves are slightly different too)
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift ****
Different instrument cluster
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate
I'm not sure if that's the complete list, but I think you can find eight grand worth of stuff there.
02-20-2009 | 05:54 PM
#81
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 107
There are many, many additional features on the 1SS which do not come standard with an LS (some of them are available as extra-cost options):
In addition to the the LS3 engine and the Brembo brakes, these include:
Heavier-duty transmission to handle the additional engine torque
Different (larger diameter) exhaust
Different suspension tuning
Engine oil cooler
20x8" front and 20x9" rear wheels instead of 18x8" all around, with matching larger tires
Six-way power driver's seat instead of 4-way manual (the seats themselves are slightly different too)
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift ****
Different instrument cluster
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate
I'm not sure if that's the complete list, but I think you can find eight grand worth of stuff there.
In addition to the the LS3 engine and the Brembo brakes, these include:
Heavier-duty transmission to handle the additional engine torque
Different (larger diameter) exhaust
Different suspension tuning
Engine oil cooler
20x8" front and 20x9" rear wheels instead of 18x8" all around, with matching larger tires
Six-way power driver's seat instead of 4-way manual (the seats themselves are slightly different too)
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift ****
Different instrument cluster
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate
I'm not sure if that's the complete list, but I think you can find eight grand worth of stuff there.
02-20-2009 | 10:17 PM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
No problem, I'm not that fragile. But I still disagree. The V8 car is priced outside its target demo. The only people willing to cough up that much is brand/model loaylists.
I never demanded more quality. The Camaro was never meant to be a luxury car. It was meant to go fast on a working man's budget.
If you want a fully loaded 1SS/2SS available to you with all the snazzy features and the 20-inch rims, more power to you. But, there is no BASE V8. That's my main point.
My personal feeling is that this incarnation of the car will not last long. It simply is not going to sell the way GM needs it to.
Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.
I never demanded more quality. The Camaro was never meant to be a luxury car. It was meant to go fast on a working man's budget.
If you want a fully loaded 1SS/2SS available to you with all the snazzy features and the 20-inch rims, more power to you. But, there is no BASE V8. That's my main point.
My personal feeling is that this incarnation of the car will not last long. It simply is not going to sell the way GM needs it to.
Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.
These factors have driven the 5th gen Camaro to be more than just a performance vehicle, but now to be a luxurious (I hope), sporty two door car.
02-20-2009 | 10:58 PM
#83
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
That leaves the following items which you'd rather not pay for:
Six-way power driver's seat
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift ****
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate
Right? Right. Now here's the kicker: I'd say that's about $2000 worth of stuff.
That means the car you want might be doable for 28,995, and I really don't think that model would sell very well. Do you?
If you really want that configuration, buy the 1SS, and then find someone that bought an LS, and offer to swap a few parts.
02-21-2009 | 08:32 AM
#84
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 107
But in the end, it doesn't really matter. Me complaining here is not going to suddenly make GM offer a cheaper car. We'll see how the sales play out.
02-21-2009 | 10:07 AM
#85
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
02-21-2009 | 12:41 PM
#86
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 329
From: Hemlock, Mich.
I personally think the car packages are set up pretty well, I would like the option of leather seating in the 1SS but I have no interest in power or heated seating in a summer only car. I plan to get a 1SS and then for around $700 add Katzskin leather seat covers.
The 1SS is 31K but If you wait a year I am sure with GMS and other rebates this car will be had for 28K and with 426Hp its a fair price compared to the rest of the cars available. Just go new car shopping and see what 30k can get you now.
Mustang is 3k less and you would need a lot more than that in mods to bring it up to Camaro specs.
The 1SS is 31K but If you wait a year I am sure with GMS and other rebates this car will be had for 28K and with 426Hp its a fair price compared to the rest of the cars available. Just go new car shopping and see what 30k can get you now.
Mustang is 3k less and you would need a lot more than that in mods to bring it up to Camaro specs.
02-21-2009 | 01:07 PM
#87
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,071
From: Detroit, MI
Its beyond fairly priced the new camaro...
Find me another NEW car for less than 30k with 400+hp. And then you would have a valid arguement. But you can't find one, because there is none.
The V6 and V8 camaro's are targeted at different markets
The V6 is for people who want something more sporty than a malibu, and bigger than a cobalt.
The V8 is for HP junkies, and for people who love the camaro name.
Find me another NEW car for less than 30k with 400+hp. And then you would have a valid arguement. But you can't find one, because there is none.
The V6 and V8 camaro's are targeted at different markets
The V6 is for people who want something more sporty than a malibu, and bigger than a cobalt.
The V8 is for HP junkies, and for people who love the camaro name.
02-21-2009 | 02:04 PM
#88
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
While physics, government regulations, and end-user cost limitations will not allow the 2010 Camaro to be an exact continuation of Camaros past, one thing can be safely expected: Pound for pound, and dollar for dollar, the 2010 Camaro will continue to be one of the best (if not the very best) performance values of its kind, just as a Camaro should.
02-22-2009 | 11:51 PM
#89
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 518
Out of touch industry
Oversimplifying, yes. But still nothing that (IMO) justifies the price jump. Sorry. And I think that most of America will agree with me. In the end, if America can't justify it, America won't pay it.
But you're also proving my point for me. Development is very expensive, yes. But that motor was already developed, it's not all-new for the Camaro.
As far as Detroit, would I be affected? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the automotive industry in this country is out-of-touch and financially diseased, and is now dragging the government into it's life support. It's disgusting.
But you're also proving my point for me. Development is very expensive, yes. But that motor was already developed, it's not all-new for the Camaro.
As far as Detroit, would I be affected? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the automotive industry in this country is out-of-touch and financially diseased, and is now dragging the government into it's life support. It's disgusting.
02-23-2009 | 08:23 AM
#90
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
Then again, that base car is the LS3 version, which has 426hp, not 400.
Also, a car doesn't have to cost less in order to be competitive. Have you tried to find another 400+hp car at anything less than 35k? That doesn't exist either. Camaro SS isn't just the best performance bang for the buck out there -- nothing else is even close.