If the aftermarket is any answer to this, then no, not really. They still hold up pretty well at the 600hp mark.

I bet the lighter 1 series will be the better handling car. I wonder why that might be?

 

First, Ford wasn't looking to create a "super Mustang" -- they just took parts they already had to get as much hp as cheaply as possible in order to capitalize on the Shelby name. The Ford GT block was, if I am not mistaken, all aluminum, and didn't have much trouble with the power.

Also, I am not sure if they did anything to the chassis. They added larger brakes, and stiffer springs, and that sort of stuff though.
(more info)

 

While I agree with your point in theory -- it might not outhandle the 335i, depending on how it is setup from the factory. BMW might not want it's cheaper car to out-handle the more expensive one. Though, that would be a quick fix in the aftermarket.

It begs the question though -- 335i + simple mods or M3 (more displacement N/A vs. smaller, F/I motor)? If the car looked the same, and cost the same, I would probably go for the V8 --especially if it had a 75-100# weight savings.

 

Hasn't stopped the 3 series from being a better handling BMW than the 7 series.

 

I vetoed 500hp NA.. Because 500 hp NA is harder to attain than a 500 hp FI'd engine. (more talent behind a 500hp NA engine than an FI'd SB, plus strap FI on ANY LSx Block and you've got a BADASS engine!) You can strap a blower/turbo on any LSx block and get 500 hp. THat's what Ford does and they still don't run that great of numbers...Mostly because of parasitic loss from trying to drive 4 cams and a WAY oversize engine that only makes 325 hp even on the Shelby GT500. -yeah, 40 years later and they're finally starting to catch up to what we did 10 years ago!

THis LSx Platform is so far ahead of it's time. THis engine makes power so easily, 500 hp is WELL with in reach! Not to mention the LS7!

 

Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. The 1 is just a cheap/small 3 (same sporty mission), and BMW wants to have compelling reasons for someone to pony up for the 3 -- much like the M3 still beats the 335i. The 7 is a far different type of car aimed at a far different audience.

Besides, you completely missed the point -- the issue is lighter usually always equals a better handling car. In the 7L vs. 6.2 F/I discussion, the expectation that the N/A motor would handle better because it is lighter is part of the reason why some people would want the N/A motor over the F/I.

I was just trying to say the 1 series vs. 3 series isn't that good of a comparison to use for this discussion, because BMW may decide to dial down the 135i to make the 335i more attractive and justify it's added expense.

 

Where do you get the parasitic loss because of 4 cams "fact" from?

Ditto the 325 hp in the GT500.

I concur that the physical dimensions of the 5.4 are quite large.

Bob

 

Is it b/c of the extra valve springs??

 

Well, I'll just jump in here with a "thought" . I offer no "proof", although it actually seems pretty easy to see/believe ...

... if you have twice as many camshafts, twice as many valves, springs, and timing chains, well? ........ this is purely scientific. You now have twice as many friction points - cam bearings x 2, valve guides x 2, spring force x 2, and the weight of 2 LONG chains.

Prove to ME that this engine would NOT be harder to turn over by hand (ie: use a torque wrench to hand-bar the motor over ... how much force does it require?). I would bet money that it would require more torque to turn over, than an engine with half as many moving/rotating parts .

And does it make significantly more power for having this DOHC setup? Apparently not . Maybe on a power per size equation, but to match the power of comparible (GM) OHV engines, it would have to be HUGE!!

Edit: Just for fun

HP / L:

GT500 = 92 (500 HP, s/c 5.4L)
Cobra = 85 (390 HP, s/c 4.6L)
LS7 = 72 (505 HP / 7.0L)
LS6 = 71 (405 HP / 5.7L)
LS3 = 69 (430 HP / 6.2L)
LS2 = 66 (400 HP / 6.0L)
3V 4.6L = 65 (300 HP / 4.6L)
LS1 = 61 (350 HP / 5.7L)
2V 4.6L = 57 (260 HP / 4.6L)
LT1 = 50 (285 HP / 5.7L)

SO, we see that unless a supercharger is used, the OHC design really isn't any more efficient, but unfortunately there is no n/a motor to compare to that is DOHC (those ones are both s/c).

Meh, they're still friggin' boat anchors IMO!!

 

but on the other hand it has less mass that is reciprocating... ie no pushrods. The cams just spin in one direction and actuate the rockers.

 

Ford isn't the only one who builds OHC engines. Your conclusion is deluded.

 

Can't argue that it would seem intuitive. I'm not an engineer, but I'm pretty sure "intuitive" doesn't make for facts that can be backed up with hard data.

Ummm.....explain why I need to prove ANYTHING in this thread? I believe it was I that asked the question.

I will say that I have turned over a 9:1 compression 5.0 and a 9.85:1 compression 4.6 - by hand - and do not remember any difference in difficulty. Then again, I haven't put a torque wrench to them to see for sure. Have you?

Wasn't something I was trying to argue, but ok.

Isn't there a 32V in some Caddys? Also, the 2003/2004 4V 4.6 would come in at 70 HP/L (right between the newer LS3 & LS2) and the 2000 5.4 4V (obviously very rare, but still a number to look at) would come in the same as the 02-04 version of the LS6

Anyway, I think HP/L is a fairly useless metric (ricers seem to love it). Physical mass of a motor is much more usefull, and GM is far better at that.

By and large, can't (and wouldn't) argue that (and wasn't trying to). Ford is way behind GM in performance engines, IMHO.

Bob

 

well that's all fine and dandy, but theres got to be more factors involved in performance of the actual car. i remember rolling in my stock SS in 1996, and i went up against a few (the brave, or stupid) 96 cobras with the dual over head cam motors. they ALL got thier booties handed to them....


now days it seems that only vettes wanna mess with me. i dont know if the mustang guys think they are too good to give me the opportunity, or if they just have thier heads up thier rear (im guessing HUA), but they dont ever seem to notice me. the guys in the new vettes seem to wanna stomp on my poor *** though. but they get a surprise every time....HE HE HE

 

UPDATE:

The blown motors are in fact Gen IV's.

 

So, just to get this straight....


When will the Gen IV's be phased out in favor of the Gen V's?

Will the Gen V's be in place by the time an uber Camaro debuts?

Will all / some / or none of the Gen V's be direct injected?

Which ones?

Are there plans for any SCed Gen V's?



Apologies, we may have gone over this already... but I don't feel like reading back through 8 - 9 pages.