Nothing at all wrong with making your hopes known.

I'm a bit troubled about the tone some threads on this forum seem to take. I hope my concern is unfounded.

Voiced notions about folks here "getting it" or "not getting it" rankle me as this is a community. I feel myself a part of this community that I value.

The Camaro enthusiast community is not monolithic in their interests nor in how they see their present or future Camaro.

I have never thought of the Camaro as a one trick pony.

I earnestly can't remember any Camaro I have owned and loved as not having it's own "personality" that I could connect with on a personal basis. Camaro has always been a true personal coupe' for me. Be it my '69 Z/28, my '70 1/2 Z/28, my '79 Z/28, my '82 Z/28, or my '95 Z/28... they all delivered what I wanted. They all provided good building blocks to appreciate in stock form or modify for my particular desire. Road racing is my preference.

I have had numerous good friends, no... let's better describe them as CAR friends who live and breathe drag racing. The passion and thought process involved in building and racing in a high pressure, one mis-calculation puts you on the trailer, or sleep even a bit and find yourself in the "buy back" lounge has taught me a bunch I could digest and use toward my own goals. Drag racing is not for the unprepared.

I also have friends that find the end of the rainbow in polishing and concerning themselves more with the car show scene. It isn't my cup of tea but there is passion mixed with gasoline there. I usually leave a show and shine event tinged with guilt and thinking " I really should wash my car".

Additionally, I truly like talking to folks about how their car makes their life more memorable in some fashion. Be it an appreciation of a fun vacation, or just driving home from a hard day at work, or how their vehicle helps them make a living and just plain enjoy life a bit better. I have been made better for it.

I'm not requesting everyone lock arms around the campfire and sing Kumbaya. Nothing of the sort.

I do, however, think folks will get more car than they think they will with their purchase of the particular flavor of Camaro they want arrives.

I also strongly suspect that there will be mods or mod packages offered to allow folks to focus their Camaro to what they in their quest to have the "perfect" car, become a reality.

I'm confident that an agile handler that can deliver all the performance goods is a part of the equation being explored and engineered through the new car.

Why or how some of us can view pics of Camaro navigating the 'Ring and not be smiling in delight, as opposed to voicing concern and even escalating the rhetoric to the point of despair, escapes me.

As a blanket thought:
GM WILL build the car that winds your watch, or they will not.

The best feature is that no one is required to buy if the car misses the personal mark any of us set for it.


That being said, let's talk '08 M3 and benchmarks.

The new M3 benchmark was the Porsche 911. Is that the target market? No... I just don't see the two being competitors for the same customer. The benchmark is more a justifier or kicker for the purchase of one over the other. The target is Benz AMG and Audi R8.

The new M3 coupe' is purported to run an 8:10 at the 'Ring. That is a worthy number. Not a 911 number, but a worthy number.

BMW can do a very good handling car given the non-cutting edge strut/multi-link setup they seem to prefer. It's good execution but not to be confused with cutting edge. Cutting edge isn't all that in the final analysis of what can gain respect.

What I don't like about the new M3 engine is the long-term reliability < yep just for me > of their foregoing the use of steel sleeves in an aluminum block expected to go high miles. I'm sure they have given it thought. I'll grant I know nothing about their approach other than their info that steel sleeves are not being used.

I hope they have it right.

I'm not sold, personally, about paying the fare to have multi choices of how many or few driving aids or suspension "feels" I'd be expected to pay for to experience the full M3 experience.


Anyway... I mean this sincerly, please consider the passion of the total community and how valid everyone's hopes are when extolling the virtues you believe are worthy or subject to possible redicule.

Benchmarks are personal.

 

Thats fair. To me The idea of the M3 (minus the exotic and expensive) is in the spirit of the origional Z28 wih Camaro Style. When I think best of AWD I think Audi, WRX, STi, and the Nissan. From what Ive seen I like the spirit of the M3 and the spirit of the Z06 for the spirit of the Z28. When youre talking about power to the ground I think Drag racing. Just my thoughts.

Scott, to me the M3 is the only car that goes for the spirit of the origional Z28. I dont think anyone expects the exotic, but to me it seems to be the only car I can think of that gives that impression. Would it be at all possible to keep the price points and shoot for that idea or spirit of the M3?(as much as can be within those pricepoints)

I mean the Z06 challenges Ferraris but doesnt ask their price range.

 

1fast, he is not saying "not getting it," as in, not getting what a Camaro should be. He is saying it in respect to people not getting what he is trying to say............ about how he is benchmarking the M3.

They are looking at performance numbers on a piece of paper............... price, on a piece of paper, ............ weight..............size.............. class of car.............. and brand.

That is not what he is talking about.

Let me try to explain it this way, as it is not talking about a $60K car.

My '94 Lightning had this feel. You could always tell exactly what the suspension was doing. It would talk to you. Anyone could get in that truck, and look like an expert driver.......... and feel like they were driving a sports car. It was that direct. It had that kind of tactile feel. It was all in the nuances. Yet, it had, by all modern measures, an ancient suspension. SVT did that good of a job on that truck.

My '01 Lightning would smoke my '94 in any measurement............ on paper. Yet, to the driver, it did not handle nearly as well. It was numb. There was no communication and no feel. Yet, it had the more sophisticated suspension. Yes there were second Gen owners who would swear that it handled better........... but those of us who truly appreciate what handling is, and isn't, knew better. It should have put down better numbers, after all, it had 295/45/18 performance car tires vs 275/60/17 performance truck tires. In the handling, I really feel that SVT let this truck down. Obviously, the same suspension guys did not work on both.

I loved my '01 Lightning, and would own another in a second. I LOVED my '94, and have actually cried about getting rid of it............ to this day. I WILL have another.

In the Camaro and Mustang community, we have a tendency to get so hung up over numbers........... and bragging rights.......... that we often forget that there is more to the picture than that. Yes it is possible for the suspension guys to get this right........... however, the reality is weighed heavily that they will "just" get good numbers. Magic doesn't happen all the time.......... but when it does.......... wow.

Now, understand that like Z28.............. I am all about the handling, and the feel. When I built my '91 Mustang GT............. it was all about the handling. So, that is the direction that I come from also. I realize, that for most of the Camaro and Mustang crowd, it is about the style, the hp, and how fast they can get down that 1/4 mile. Just remember that great feel in a suspension setup doesn't sacrifice any of that.

 

You know Paul, some people 'get' it on some things and some people just don't. I think that we shouldn't be so stiflingly PC that we just can't come out and say that.

For example, I don't 'get' why someone would buy a car with a 550 hp SC'd motor and have this need to mod it, because that's not enough power. Nope, I admit it - I don't 'get' that at all. My wife doesn't 'get' why all my cars are sticks. She just doesn't get it. When Jenny the receptionist buys that base V6 Camaro, she won't 'get' what and why, I want in a Z/28.
It's okay if we are not on the same page regarding 'getting it', we can still be a community and be friends. I think so, anyways.

But what we're talking about here, is not the many flavors of Camaro or our varied community - we are talking about the one and only, triple distilled, focused like a laser beam - Z/28. For me personally, the M3's driving experience personifies what I'd be looking for in a Z/28. In fact, I simply cannot think of a better example on this planet. Like you said, the Z/28 is a road racer - let's keep it that way. The GT500. on the other hand, is merely a straight line brute- nothing more. An expensive and heavy, one trick pony. Using the GT500 formula for a 5th gen Z/28, for me personally, would equal TOTAL failure.

BTW, for the record, since cost has come up.....the last GT500 I saw at the dealer, was priced at $58K....M3 money. I know how I'd spend that much money.

 

*sheepish grin*

Charlie - I owe you an apology -- I shouldn't try to answer some of these emails late at night after a particularly stressful day...........

I now see what you mean -- yes, benchmarking...........

The problem I have with this post -- is setting an unrealistically high 'expectation' -- only to disappoint some.

Good example:

The ZR1 will blow the doors off some of the competition -- simply blow them off -- then tear off the hood -- and rape the gas tank...........


..................but SOMEONE -- SOMEWHERE -- will complain that "the interior isn't up to the par of
>>>insert name of stupidly high priced car here<<<


....sure as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow: someone will complain that a $100K Corvette doesn't have the interior ambience of a car that costs $500K................


.............see what I mean?


Let me say this one more time:


JOHN HEINRICY


I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised...........



And Mr. 1FastDog -- you are truly an amazing person.............how is it that I can't be as good as you when it comes to 'calm them down' posts?????

 

Charlie, it's not any one particular spec on paper that should be "focused like a laser beam", but that oneness where car and man meld into one...where control of the car is subconscious...no thought to it.
The power should compliment this oneness, not overpower it, or become an obstacle to achieving it.
I wouldn't trade my IROC for nothing, we connect, and it's a BLAST!
I'm hoping they repeat this feeling with this new Z/28.

 

Must've posted same time...
The above statement is what my hope's been holding to...thanks!

 

Gloria,
You play more to my point when you speak about being in tune with a pick-up truck < granted not the run of the mill hay hauler > by making your eloquent description on what resonates for you. You have me wanting to take a ride in that thing.

Gloria, a good fellow I have the pleasure to know was one of the better Yenko Stinger drivers there was. I mention this because I see the Yenko Stinger in your sig... Beyond that he was a very good road racing talent, and GM engineer with what I could only dream about when it comes to smallblock much less bigblock knowledge... I mean the guy built the preliminary design of the cross ram 302 TransAM intake. He had far more seat time in L88 'vettes than Zora could hope for.
I help privateer teams win races on road courses. I have had the good fortune to drive cars my wife would shoot me for buying. Driven other peoples race cars they would shoot me for crashing. Do I see myself as important? No. I'm just passionate and lucky.

A good balanced and communicative car is something I have experience with. At least I think I do... You need not preach to this particular choir. I do hope to meet you one day to swap stories. I bet yours are better than mine.

What I am not, however, is particularly concerned about the desirability of the new Camaro. I have high hopes for what will be offered. If it kicks a high dollar Mustang's *** at the strip and turns a nice number at the "Ring as well? I'll grin.
I figure that shipping a car from the US or OZ to Germany has little to do with pulling a good sixty footer Brembo isn't known for it's "drag pack". I have to hook a bit of faith to the evidence.

Mmmmm, you mention numbers...
Numbers are not an end all or be all for me. Neither do I rule them out merely because they are digits on a page. I do analyze them with a sharp eye. My tail in the seat is the final decider.

I do think this is all conjecture prior to actually driving the new Camaro. Final opinions and concerns are rather moot 'til then.

 

Charlie, I'm not being PC. I'm being earnest. Doesn't mean I don't have my own heart felt preferences. I certainly do. It doesn't suggest I don't have strong opinions, because I do.
As you say Charlie, we are still friends and part of a passionate community.
I look forward to talking cars with you again, face to face. I enjoy and value your input.
I might be over stepping here, but I think you really want the Camaro you want and are worried you won't get it..
I hope you will be pleased with what is coming.
Either way, I consider us friends.

 

[QUOTE=Fbodfather;5319075And Mr. 1FastDog -- you are truly an amazing person.............how is it that I can't be as good as you when it comes to 'calm them down' posts?????[/QUOTE]

What a nice compliment. Thanks.

You are one of the sharper pencils in the box my friend. One of the sharpest.

 

Yeah the ZR1 will and a small group will always complain. but I think the ZR1 and the Z06 compares and is doing exactly to the Ferraris and the rest what we mean or at least what I would like the Z28 to do to the M3.
The Z06 and the M3 I personally think nail the spirit of the Z28 but also agree with you that the price point has to be realistic.

I think some of it is a fear that a car like the Z28 will become a 1/4 mile car that does decent in the corners rather than a corner carver that can respectably hold its own at the drag strip.

 

Yes, I DO worry that the Camaro I want will slip through my fingers. I've got alot of heart and soul invested here - and it's not as simple as "just go buy something else". I've been bugging people from GM, from Bob Lutz on down for years now over this. Poor freakin' Scott, I know I've driven him nuts at times, for over a decade.

Anyway, we are all friends and a community. And I look forward to talking cars face to face again as well. It's always fun and interesting.

 

Charlie,
I do think there will be an issue with GM giving exactly what you want from the factory in a Z/28. I think you might need to do some personalization to get you where you want to be. I am 100% confident GM WILL give you the platform for the car you want though.

My prediction as of 4/18/08: You will buy a SS with the options you like from the factory, and over the following year will make it exactly what you wanted the Z/28 to be. The aftermarket will get you where you want to be.

Take a step back, man. The journey is where the joy is given...

 

I agree with Charlie and that once he heard that the GT500, in his eyes (and many others) is a straight line performance machine. It packs a big punchy engine, but its performance when that hard left comes is dismal.

Ill say that if John Heinricy can make the HHR SS break records around the toughest track in the world, I have 100% faith in the fact that Camaro Z28 will be scary awesome.

 

I'm starting to think my Z/28 w/ a base LS3 isn't such a bad idea . You can get it that way if you want a lighter more nimble (though not as fast) car, or get the OPTIONAL supercharged engine for max power, w/ a possible hit in handling.