SOMONE PUT ME IN THE 14's
09-20-2002, 02:18 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 642
Read this article: www.inter-scape.com/ray/305buildup.htm
Pay attention to it up until the head swap. You can make plenty of power to run in the 14s easily with headers, intake (I'd go Performer RPM), and a mild cam. They made 269hp, but they used a larger intake than you'll want to run (didn't lose power with the stock cam, didn't make any either, probably made a difference with the hotter cam) You won't want to run quite as hot a cam as they did either, so you'll give up a little power there as well but you can still make 250ish hp and run 14s easily with some decent gears.
IMO you wasted your money on just a muffler on the crappy 2.5" exhaust. Ideally what you want to do is save up and buy the whole exhaust, the Headers, cat (if you have emissions tests), and catback at one time, buying the parts listed for a 305 or 350 TPI single cat car. That gets you the 3" stuff that will still install easily in your car. Then save up some more and do the intake and cam swap at the same time. Again I would get the Performer RPM intake (check the dyno graph in the article, no noticeable lowend loss yet it made 20 more peak hp and 15-20 more ft-lbs than the regular Performer WITH the stock heads and cam still on there holding it back...) For a cam I'd look at something with specs around 210/218 dur @.050 or so, and around .440/.450 lift. Just a general rough setup I would shoot for on the cam.
Lastly you need to look at the gears. You should have 2.73 gears unless I'm mistaken, so you'll need to upgrade to around a 3.42 or 3.73 gear, depending on how much highway driving you expect to do. You could settle for 3.23s if you happen to find a really good deal on a complete rear or something. If you have an open rear you'll need to do something there or you'll just be spinning one tire down the damn track. You options if you have an open rear are to get a new posi carrier and gears for it and get em installed. That will set you back around $600 at least by the time you get the posi, the gears, the install kit and pay labor. I did that on my 86 IROC, not cheap. Or you could buy a whole other 3.42 geared open rear (common on v6 thirdgens....) from a junkyard ($100ish) and throw in a Powertrax ($300) unit yourself. I went that route on my 87Z and was about as cheap as I could come out that I figured. If you've already got a posi in there (not sure on a LG4 Z28) just snag the gears and an install kit and get it installed, should come out about the same as the junkyard rear/powertrax.
You're not looking at supercheap for all this, but it really shouldn't cost too much for this total setup and if it doesn't run well on into the 14s then something is bad wrong... This may be more work than you want to do, in which case your only option is Nitrous. For me that wasn't even a consideration, not the way I want to go fast. Get caught with you pants down and you could get your *** kicked by a momas car if you're counting on NO2 for everything in a near stock LG4...
Pay attention to it up until the head swap. You can make plenty of power to run in the 14s easily with headers, intake (I'd go Performer RPM), and a mild cam. They made 269hp, but they used a larger intake than you'll want to run (didn't lose power with the stock cam, didn't make any either, probably made a difference with the hotter cam) You won't want to run quite as hot a cam as they did either, so you'll give up a little power there as well but you can still make 250ish hp and run 14s easily with some decent gears.
IMO you wasted your money on just a muffler on the crappy 2.5" exhaust. Ideally what you want to do is save up and buy the whole exhaust, the Headers, cat (if you have emissions tests), and catback at one time, buying the parts listed for a 305 or 350 TPI single cat car. That gets you the 3" stuff that will still install easily in your car. Then save up some more and do the intake and cam swap at the same time. Again I would get the Performer RPM intake (check the dyno graph in the article, no noticeable lowend loss yet it made 20 more peak hp and 15-20 more ft-lbs than the regular Performer WITH the stock heads and cam still on there holding it back...) For a cam I'd look at something with specs around 210/218 dur @.050 or so, and around .440/.450 lift. Just a general rough setup I would shoot for on the cam.
Lastly you need to look at the gears. You should have 2.73 gears unless I'm mistaken, so you'll need to upgrade to around a 3.42 or 3.73 gear, depending on how much highway driving you expect to do. You could settle for 3.23s if you happen to find a really good deal on a complete rear or something. If you have an open rear you'll need to do something there or you'll just be spinning one tire down the damn track. You options if you have an open rear are to get a new posi carrier and gears for it and get em installed. That will set you back around $600 at least by the time you get the posi, the gears, the install kit and pay labor. I did that on my 86 IROC, not cheap. Or you could buy a whole other 3.42 geared open rear (common on v6 thirdgens....) from a junkyard ($100ish) and throw in a Powertrax ($300) unit yourself. I went that route on my 87Z and was about as cheap as I could come out that I figured. If you've already got a posi in there (not sure on a LG4 Z28) just snag the gears and an install kit and get it installed, should come out about the same as the junkyard rear/powertrax.
You're not looking at supercheap for all this, but it really shouldn't cost too much for this total setup and if it doesn't run well on into the 14s then something is bad wrong... This may be more work than you want to do, in which case your only option is Nitrous. For me that wasn't even a consideration, not the way I want to go fast. Get caught with you pants down and you could get your *** kicked by a momas car if you're counting on NO2 for everything in a near stock LG4...
Last edited by Ray86IROC; 09-20-2002 at 02:39 AM.
09-20-2002, 09:16 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elkton,md
Posts: 39
Good Article thanx. I'm gonna run it tonight and definately get back to you guys on the results. I was told that a 3in exhaust would do no good because of the lack of back pressure. I plan to install ram air for my car saturday by attaching the extra snorkel to the air cleaner but does anyone know of anywhere else i could locate the duct tubing other than behind the high beam. So im starting to build a list and this is where i stand right now.....
2.5 flowmaster 40 series
k&n
Edelbrock performer RPM intake
Hooker shorties
Ram Air Dual Snorkel
210/218 dur @.050 or so, and around .440/.450 lift Cam
change timing to ......i think someone said 10-12
160 degree thermostat
Where do u guys think this will put me? I'll get back to u all tonight to let u know what kind of night i had.
2.5 flowmaster 40 series
k&n
Edelbrock performer RPM intake
Hooker shorties
Ram Air Dual Snorkel
210/218 dur @.050 or so, and around .440/.450 lift Cam
change timing to ......i think someone said 10-12
160 degree thermostat
Where do u guys think this will put me? I'll get back to u all tonight to let u know what kind of night i had.
09-20-2002, 03:05 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 642
Common misconception that gets thrown around. The crappy exhaust is one of the bigger restrictions on these LG4 cars that you can remove. If you had a true dual setup 2.5 inchers would be fine, but in a single exhaust you'll want the 3". Even the mild 305 TPI autos had 3" stuff stock... Since you still need to buy headers still go ahead and get 3" stuff, you won't be out much since all you've purchased is the 2.5" muffler already...
Oh yeah I wanted to note with the Performer RPM you'll have to run a drop base aircleaner setup to fit under the stock hood instead of the dual snorkel setup you mentioned above, assuming you were meaning the stock HO intake. No big deal, $30ish for a drop base, open element setup...
Oh yeah I wanted to note with the Performer RPM you'll have to run a drop base aircleaner setup to fit under the stock hood instead of the dual snorkel setup you mentioned above, assuming you were meaning the stock HO intake. No big deal, $30ish for a drop base, open element setup...
Last edited by Ray86IROC; 09-20-2002 at 03:09 PM.
09-20-2002, 06:11 PM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,947
Yes, you can locate them behind the fog lights but best if the fog lights are removed. The idea behind Ram Air is to use the positive pressure wave to actually "stuff" "cold" air in the motor. A kinda natural supercharging effect. So they should be facing forward.
If you just want a milder cold air set up, turn the snorkel backwards and cut a couple of holes into the area where the wiper transmission is below the windshield, now you have a cool sorta cowl induction.
If you just want a milder cold air set up, turn the snorkel backwards and cut a couple of holes into the area where the wiper transmission is below the windshield, now you have a cool sorta cowl induction.
09-20-2002, 11:12 PM
#20
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elkton,md
Posts: 39
WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?! Please someone explain this to me...... last time i ran my car i had bald tires, the oil was 200mi past 3000, and the car was completely stock and i went 16.6 @ 83. Since that night i have had the flowmaster put on, added a K&N filter, had the oil changed, added oil treatment, and carburator cleaner, also i flipped the air cleaner cap over and these are the numbers i come out with in 2 passes......
R/T 1.151 1.012
60' 2.638 2.604
330 7.304 7.274
1/8 11.140 11.100
MPH 65.19 64.89
1000 14.381 14.357
1/4 17.142 17.129 Track Conditions were 71 and 73
MPH 81.64 81.35 degrees w/ 96% humidity
Now i realize that i was having a bad night as far as reaction times go but thats no excuse for that bad of times and mph. I'm completely lost now the car feels like its running better but the numbers just arent showing it. I have run 16.2 @ 86 stock and now i cant even break 17. Someone please help me out.
R/T 1.151 1.012
60' 2.638 2.604
330 7.304 7.274
1/8 11.140 11.100
MPH 65.19 64.89
1000 14.381 14.357
1/4 17.142 17.129 Track Conditions were 71 and 73
MPH 81.64 81.35 degrees w/ 96% humidity
Now i realize that i was having a bad night as far as reaction times go but thats no excuse for that bad of times and mph. I'm completely lost now the car feels like its running better but the numbers just arent showing it. I have run 16.2 @ 86 stock and now i cant even break 17. Someone please help me out.
Last edited by BADAZZ_Z28; 09-20-2002 at 11:23 PM.
09-21-2002, 12:01 AM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 642
Well, what were your 60 foot times from your previous runs? Because these 2.6s are down right screwing you tonight. If the 60s are close to the same I'd say you've got some tuning problems. Have you swapped on new cap/coil/rotor/wires, etc? Clutch giving you any problems or anything? Doesn't take alot to throw your times off... I kinda doubted you would pick up much if any time with just a 2.5 inch muffler and K&N, but you certainly shouldn't have gone downhill, lol. Could be the Humidity screwing you some I suppose. I'm suspecting some tuning issue or something....
Last edited by Ray86IROC; 09-21-2002 at 12:07 AM.
09-21-2002, 05:50 PM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elkton,md
Posts: 39
Here is my timeslip from my last run......
R/T 1.007
60' 2.583
330 7.120
1/8 10.814
MPH 67.28
1000 13.930
1/4 16.466
MPH 86.22
The humidity was the same that night, not a clutch problem, i was thinking most likely tuning also. Should i just pay for a good ol' tune up or do u think there is anything specific i should look at or have replaced? I did notice i have been running a lil hot lately at around 200-220 and after i made my first pass i was at about 230. Could have some problems there.Fortunately the next friday grudge match/ test and tune isnt for two weeks because of the Summit thing at the strip next week so i have time to fix things before my next pass.
R/T 1.007
60' 2.583
330 7.120
1/8 10.814
MPH 67.28
1000 13.930
1/4 16.466
MPH 86.22
The humidity was the same that night, not a clutch problem, i was thinking most likely tuning also. Should i just pay for a good ol' tune up or do u think there is anything specific i should look at or have replaced? I did notice i have been running a lil hot lately at around 200-220 and after i made my first pass i was at about 230. Could have some problems there.Fortunately the next friday grudge match/ test and tune isnt for two weeks because of the Summit thing at the strip next week so i have time to fix things before my next pass.
09-21-2002, 06:32 PM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 642
Hmm, not a big enough difference in the 60 foot to make up for those other times. Just about got to be tuning, although you do say it seems to run good/better. Oh well, a tuneup won't hurt and then you'll know you have a good starting point.
I wouldn't pay for a tuneup myself. Just to go some local parts place and get a new distributor cap and rotor at least. That should be $20ish. Wouldn't surprise me if the coil isn't old as hell too. I'd change it if it were me but that's about $30-$40 I believe, don't know your money situation. A aftermarket hotter coil would be a good idea if you change it out. At least do the cap and rotor change. Not a big deal. Then inspect the plug wires and make sure you have no burns and/or cracks on any of the wires. If you have the money that's another good thing just to change out to aftermarket stuff on, just to eliminate the wires as a potential problem. Then I'd change the spark plugs unless you know they've been changed recently and aren't fouled or anything (check a couple). Get you timing set properly to around 8 ish and you should be good on that whole end.
Try going to www.thirdgen.org and visit their forums, specifically the carb board and look into tuning your carb a bit. I've never had a quadrajet so I'm not up on tuning it. It's not hard to do, and there are several quadrajet gurus there that can surely help. I believe there may be a tech article on the quadrajet tuning tricks there at thirdgen.org too, can't remember.
You engine temp can make a pretty big difference, and 230 degrees is certainly on up there a bit. Was it also hot the times you ran in the 16s or was it cooler? That could be a part of it if so I would guess, wouldn't think quite that much of a difference though but who knows... Try swapping in a cooler 160 degree thermostat while you're tuning, only a couple dollars. I've not had any luck getting my cars to run cool enough to suit me without buying a good waterpump though. The stock replacement pumps have been worthless for me. I ended up with a $69 Stewart Components Stage 1 hi-flow pump on both of my thirdgens (www.stewartcomponents.com). Cooling problems instantly solved, but alas more money out of the ole wallet...
I wouldn't pay for a tuneup myself. Just to go some local parts place and get a new distributor cap and rotor at least. That should be $20ish. Wouldn't surprise me if the coil isn't old as hell too. I'd change it if it were me but that's about $30-$40 I believe, don't know your money situation. A aftermarket hotter coil would be a good idea if you change it out. At least do the cap and rotor change. Not a big deal. Then inspect the plug wires and make sure you have no burns and/or cracks on any of the wires. If you have the money that's another good thing just to change out to aftermarket stuff on, just to eliminate the wires as a potential problem. Then I'd change the spark plugs unless you know they've been changed recently and aren't fouled or anything (check a couple). Get you timing set properly to around 8 ish and you should be good on that whole end.
Try going to www.thirdgen.org and visit their forums, specifically the carb board and look into tuning your carb a bit. I've never had a quadrajet so I'm not up on tuning it. It's not hard to do, and there are several quadrajet gurus there that can surely help. I believe there may be a tech article on the quadrajet tuning tricks there at thirdgen.org too, can't remember.
You engine temp can make a pretty big difference, and 230 degrees is certainly on up there a bit. Was it also hot the times you ran in the 16s or was it cooler? That could be a part of it if so I would guess, wouldn't think quite that much of a difference though but who knows... Try swapping in a cooler 160 degree thermostat while you're tuning, only a couple dollars. I've not had any luck getting my cars to run cool enough to suit me without buying a good waterpump though. The stock replacement pumps have been worthless for me. I ended up with a $69 Stewart Components Stage 1 hi-flow pump on both of my thirdgens (www.stewartcomponents.com). Cooling problems instantly solved, but alas more money out of the ole wallet...
Last edited by Ray86IROC; 09-21-2002 at 06:41 PM.
09-22-2002, 08:57 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,947
I'd pull the plugs and try yo read them for some clues;
blackened plugs will point to poor ignition or rich carb, but personally I'd suspect ignition.
A timing light is an invaluable tool in tuning, if you don't have one they're about $30 at a parts store, and a timing tape(for the harmonic balancer) about $7.
I never like to go to the track with any kind of cleaner or additives in the fuel tank, weird thing s can happen.
Invest in a "Low Temperature Fan Switch" about $40 at Jegs or Summit, should keep your temp well under 200* even thru the drive thru's.
Sounds like some detemation crept in on you, a silent power robber(without a scan tool)b/c the ECM will retard timing as much as 12-degrees!
I'd do:
1.) change the fuel filter, especially if you poured a bunch of cleaner in the tank.
2.)pull, INSPECT and replace the spark plugs.(they're very valuable tuning tools.)
3.)check the inside of the dist.cap&rotor.replace if pitted or worn electrodes, replace with a cap using "brass" inserts instead of aluminum.
4.)Bend the plug wires checking for cracks, if you replace them use an 8+ mm spiral core wire brand of your choice."Accel Super Stock" under $40.(now at AutoZone or Advance Auto.)
5.)HAve someone behind you as you get on it to see if it rolls black smoke. If tuned up, then suspect the carb.
blackened plugs will point to poor ignition or rich carb, but personally I'd suspect ignition.
A timing light is an invaluable tool in tuning, if you don't have one they're about $30 at a parts store, and a timing tape(for the harmonic balancer) about $7.
I never like to go to the track with any kind of cleaner or additives in the fuel tank, weird thing s can happen.
Invest in a "Low Temperature Fan Switch" about $40 at Jegs or Summit, should keep your temp well under 200* even thru the drive thru's.
Sounds like some detemation crept in on you, a silent power robber(without a scan tool)b/c the ECM will retard timing as much as 12-degrees!
I'd do:
1.) change the fuel filter, especially if you poured a bunch of cleaner in the tank.
2.)pull, INSPECT and replace the spark plugs.(they're very valuable tuning tools.)
3.)check the inside of the dist.cap&rotor.replace if pitted or worn electrodes, replace with a cap using "brass" inserts instead of aluminum.
4.)Bend the plug wires checking for cracks, if you replace them use an 8+ mm spiral core wire brand of your choice."Accel Super Stock" under $40.(now at AutoZone or Advance Auto.)
5.)HAve someone behind you as you get on it to see if it rolls black smoke. If tuned up, then suspect the carb.
09-22-2002, 08:15 PM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: May 1999
Location: longwood, Fl, USA
Posts: 694
WAIT WAIT!!!
I BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!!!!
look listen and learn... I got my car in high school back in 1989 it is a 84 LG4....145hp stock....
I went low 15 with with motor and about a 1000...with a PEG leg rear (open rear with 2.73 gears....)
BEST advise first.... get a tune-up and a timing light(you need advance) and a older mechanic that does the Q-JET!
Second best ADVISE! keep the 14 in wheels with a low profile tire... what ever it is 215 60 r14 something like that or 235 60 R 14....
The short tire will help your 60Ft time...
1st time to the track with my car 17.1 at 80 something...
1st mods for me ....tune up ! that put me in the mid 16...
I got a tach (could not see shift points on my car....) I had the ultra cool MPH GAUGE AND THE GIANT FUEL GAUGE!!
had my carb re-done.... cut off the cat added 2.5 in exhaust with 2 chamber flowmaster.....
that put me to 15.8!!!
I got a edlbrock performer RPM and a super coil and a factory dual snokle air cleaner(nice piece) it went 15.3 !!!
I could beat my friends IROC!!
Do that and ou will get there my friend...
later I did a cam comp cam 2020 and broke the 14 barrier.... only to lose the motor a day or 2 later on the highway....
80k miles on it... BROKEN CRANK....
I got a 350 short block (NEW) less heads for 500.00 and use all my old stuff ...... went to the track with stock 350 and my intake and exhaust and my 305 goodies....14.8 at 92!!
that was over a 2 year period...
good luck
I BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!!!!
look listen and learn... I got my car in high school back in 1989 it is a 84 LG4....145hp stock....
I went low 15 with with motor and about a 1000...with a PEG leg rear (open rear with 2.73 gears....)
BEST advise first.... get a tune-up and a timing light(you need advance) and a older mechanic that does the Q-JET!
Second best ADVISE! keep the 14 in wheels with a low profile tire... what ever it is 215 60 r14 something like that or 235 60 R 14....
The short tire will help your 60Ft time...
1st time to the track with my car 17.1 at 80 something...
1st mods for me ....tune up ! that put me in the mid 16...
I got a tach (could not see shift points on my car....) I had the ultra cool MPH GAUGE AND THE GIANT FUEL GAUGE!!
had my carb re-done.... cut off the cat added 2.5 in exhaust with 2 chamber flowmaster.....
that put me to 15.8!!!
I got a edlbrock performer RPM and a super coil and a factory dual snokle air cleaner(nice piece) it went 15.3 !!!
I could beat my friends IROC!!
Do that and ou will get there my friend...
later I did a cam comp cam 2020 and broke the 14 barrier.... only to lose the motor a day or 2 later on the highway....
80k miles on it... BROKEN CRANK....
I got a 350 short block (NEW) less heads for 500.00 and use all my old stuff ...... went to the track with stock 350 and my intake and exhaust and my 305 goodies....14.8 at 92!!
that was over a 2 year period...
good luck
09-24-2002, 06:31 PM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elkton,md
Posts: 39
YESSSSSS! I have been thinking distributor cap and rotor change was a good idea and I love it when i get backed up. So that looks to be this weekends goal since there is a Summitt thing going on this friday at the track i cant run anyway so i got time. Then it is definately time for the dual snorkel air cleaner. How much did that set you back anyway? I heard $300 from one guy so I might just have to find another stock air cleaner and make the dual snorkel set up myself. However this weekend will be all about tuning up and making her feel new again. I havent replaced the spark plugs since ive had the car (year and a half) so i dont know how old they are so im going play it safe and replace them anyway. As soon as im done typing this im going to look at tuning the quadrajet. I'll keep ya updated! I'm sure u guys will have more questions coming from me so keep a look out.
09-25-2002, 08:10 AM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Norfolk, VA. USA
Posts: 1,880
I got my 86 LG4 into the 14's. Only cost about $400 total.
These are the parts I used:
Edelbrock 1406 Carb
Edelbrock 7101 Intake Manifold
Vacuum Advanced Distributor
Edelbrock Open Element Air Cleaner
I have a 5 speed so that might be a disadvantage to you.
I hit a 14.94 @ 91.67mph with this setup.
some vids from that day are on my site,
http://www.transamws6.com/video/
and this is what my motor looked like,
http://www.transamws6.com/pics/transam/Edelbrock.jpg
These are the parts I used:
Edelbrock 1406 Carb
Edelbrock 7101 Intake Manifold
Vacuum Advanced Distributor
Edelbrock Open Element Air Cleaner
I have a 5 speed so that might be a disadvantage to you.
I hit a 14.94 @ 91.67mph with this setup.
some vids from that day are on my site,
http://www.transamws6.com/video/
and this is what my motor looked like,
http://www.transamws6.com/pics/transam/Edelbrock.jpg
09-26-2002, 08:33 AM
#30
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: elkton,md
Posts: 39
should i go open element rather than dual snorkel? I keep seeing people who love their open elements is that a better idea? Also any of you that are in the Atlantic Region you should check out the Mid Atlantic group board on thirdgen.org. They are trying to put together a 3rd gen meet of over 100 cars in the northern maryland area.