Start naming your 12 second 350 combos....
01-28-2004, 10:51 PM
#17
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Originally posted by CamaroStylin
for my fuel injection setup I've come up with a combo that uses the stock TPI intake and produces 404 hp with 418 torque at 9.5:1 or 422 hp and 433 torque at 10.5:1.
for my fuel injection setup I've come up with a combo that uses the stock TPI intake and produces 404 hp with 418 torque at 9.5:1 or 422 hp and 433 torque at 10.5:1.
01-28-2004, 11:08 PM
#18
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Hey Rip,
Chevy High Performance did an article on the Scoggin Dickey Vortec heads and manifold base on a hot cammed L98 a few months back. I believe they ended up making around 370 RWHP with that setup. Not bad for a hot cam.
Chevy High Performance did an article on the Scoggin Dickey Vortec heads and manifold base on a hot cammed L98 a few months back. I believe they ended up making around 370 RWHP with that setup. Not bad for a hot cam.
01-28-2004, 11:42 PM
#19
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Location: Phila., PA
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3.73s will work just fine with a TPI car. You gear it to come out of the hole as strong as it can, short of breaking traction. No, you can't rev the snot out of a TPI setup but when you hit 5500 that's when you shift to 2nd gear. If you only had one forward gear then yes, 3.73s would probably be too steep. Fortunately, you've got 4, each one taller than the last. Rear gears don't require a chip reprogram- just change the drive/driven gear combo on the VSS located in the tailshaft of the tranny to compensate for a gear change.
Going 12s for cheap (something I've done many times with many different cars/engines) is about getting a good launch and having torque in a usable RPM range. Peak horsepower is a secondary consideration. With good traction and gearing you can get a 3500lb car to run a high 12 with as little as 300-325HP. It's not going to be able to put a Z-06 in the rearview from a roll but it will cover the dragstrip in less than 13 seconds.
Building traction and getting a good launch is almost always less costly than trying to add 100+HP to your engine (nitrous being the exception, obviously)
Going 12s for cheap (something I've done many times with many different cars/engines) is about getting a good launch and having torque in a usable RPM range. Peak horsepower is a secondary consideration. With good traction and gearing you can get a 3500lb car to run a high 12 with as little as 300-325HP. It's not going to be able to put a Z-06 in the rearview from a roll but it will cover the dragstrip in less than 13 seconds.
Building traction and getting a good launch is almost always less costly than trying to add 100+HP to your engine (nitrous being the exception, obviously)
01-29-2004, 11:51 AM
#20
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Originally posted by CamaroStylin
i know it's long, but read it. maybe, even in my rediculous period of inexperience, i could help you
i dont quite see how some of these cars could get to the 12.5 range with the limited amount of mods listed. i mean these are 4000 pound cars (at least mine is) and i dont quite see how it could be done.
so what's the CHEAPEST way to get to 12.5 without nitrous? I prefer to go all motor. secondly, whats teh big deal with stealthram? everyone keeps talkin about putting it on their 350s, but I dont see the big difference. Maybe someone could help me out with that.
just so you know, i've got a budget 350 setup that gets 491 hp and 460 ft lbs of torque using a 750 carb and 10.5:1 compression, or 469 hp and 443 ft lbs running 9.5:1 if you'd rather run low grade fuel and save the money. this is a severe budget setup compared to the power. I handed this setup over to my friend for his nova the other day and showed him the dyno sheets and air flow charts for this and he just about fell out. he ordered the cam the next day through Crane Cams (cam was about 250 bucks. you can find it on summit for cheaper). you can modify the stock heads to get the power you need from them and some large tube headers will top off this massive power. let me know if you wanna see the specs for it. I would use it myself, but I NEED fuel injection.
for my fuel injection setup I've come up with a combo that uses the stock TPI intake and produces 404 hp with 418 torque at 9.5:1 or 422 hp and 433 torque at 10.5:1. again, if youre interested, let me know.
again, i ask everyone, what's the CHEAPEST way to get my L98 to toss my camaro down the quarter mile in 12.5 seconds?
what sort of suspension work would give me a better run and not be so outrageous that i couldnt use it on the street? thanks guys!
and sinse it seems so damn important, I'm 18
i know it's long, but read it. maybe, even in my rediculous period of inexperience, i could help you
i dont quite see how some of these cars could get to the 12.5 range with the limited amount of mods listed. i mean these are 4000 pound cars (at least mine is) and i dont quite see how it could be done.
so what's the CHEAPEST way to get to 12.5 without nitrous? I prefer to go all motor. secondly, whats teh big deal with stealthram? everyone keeps talkin about putting it on their 350s, but I dont see the big difference. Maybe someone could help me out with that.
just so you know, i've got a budget 350 setup that gets 491 hp and 460 ft lbs of torque using a 750 carb and 10.5:1 compression, or 469 hp and 443 ft lbs running 9.5:1 if you'd rather run low grade fuel and save the money. this is a severe budget setup compared to the power. I handed this setup over to my friend for his nova the other day and showed him the dyno sheets and air flow charts for this and he just about fell out. he ordered the cam the next day through Crane Cams (cam was about 250 bucks. you can find it on summit for cheaper). you can modify the stock heads to get the power you need from them and some large tube headers will top off this massive power. let me know if you wanna see the specs for it. I would use it myself, but I NEED fuel injection.
for my fuel injection setup I've come up with a combo that uses the stock TPI intake and produces 404 hp with 418 torque at 9.5:1 or 422 hp and 433 torque at 10.5:1. again, if youre interested, let me know.
again, i ask everyone, what's the CHEAPEST way to get my L98 to toss my camaro down the quarter mile in 12.5 seconds?
what sort of suspension work would give me a better run and not be so outrageous that i couldnt use it on the street? thanks guys!
and sinse it seems so damn important, I'm 18
01-29-2004, 07:09 PM
#21
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Location: Phila., PA
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Running 1.8-1.9 60 foot times is as easy as bolting on a set of DRs (I prefer the BFG DRs that many people uses in size 255/50R16s on stock factory 16" wheels, if that's what you've got). If you're not into running DRs on the street (true daily driver) a set of spare factory 16" wheels off e-bay is cheap enough.
Beyond that, a set of stout aftermarket lower control arms and a lower control arm relocation kit can get you an extra .1 in the 60 foot pretty easy. Very street drivable. I went nuts one time and installed South Side Machine "lift bars." Yeah, they planted the tires OK, but were a little too aggressive for a street daily driver.
Having a higher stall converter also helps the lauch considerably. Not just how much torque makes it to the back wheels when the light goes green, but also in the ease of throttle modulation off the line. Stock converter was tough to balance between spin and bog. High stall converter made the throttle much more "manageable" and forgiving if you hit it a little too hard or a little to soft. I could still "feel" what was happening out back, adjust the throttle slightly and "recover" to get a decent launch. When traction was really good it was even more of a blast to run. Nail it on the final yellow, let it pin my head to the seat and the machinery did all the work from there. Zero brainpower required.
If you gotta run TPI for emissions I'll still recommend the Scoggin Dickey kit. On my low-buck TPI engines I did everyting I could to improve flow through the stock L-98 heads (this was before there was such a thing as Vortec heads). Then I went crazy doing every "free mod" I could think of on the engine. I also used SLP intake runners with the upper plenum matched to their odd "figure-8" opening shape. 1.6 Rockers were added to the otherwise stock valvetrain. Exhaust was 1-5/8" headers, and a complete 3" exhaust (using a 3" cat). Like you, I had to pass emissions- and did with flying colors.
Still, I doubt I made more than 300 or so peak HP at the flywheel. Making power with a nearly stock TPI was a little more difficult back then- not as many good bolt-on heads back in the early 90s. Had to make do with the crummy factory castings.
Like you, I ran a factory Mass Airflow Sensor type TPI system. Stock chip- no programming changes. I figured the MAF would compensate for any airflow changes. In hindsight I think a custom chip would probably make more power, but custom chips where like "way high tech" back then. Not may people knew what they were doing with them. Again, we made do with what we had access to.
Beyond that, a set of stout aftermarket lower control arms and a lower control arm relocation kit can get you an extra .1 in the 60 foot pretty easy. Very street drivable. I went nuts one time and installed South Side Machine "lift bars." Yeah, they planted the tires OK, but were a little too aggressive for a street daily driver.
Having a higher stall converter also helps the lauch considerably. Not just how much torque makes it to the back wheels when the light goes green, but also in the ease of throttle modulation off the line. Stock converter was tough to balance between spin and bog. High stall converter made the throttle much more "manageable" and forgiving if you hit it a little too hard or a little to soft. I could still "feel" what was happening out back, adjust the throttle slightly and "recover" to get a decent launch. When traction was really good it was even more of a blast to run. Nail it on the final yellow, let it pin my head to the seat and the machinery did all the work from there. Zero brainpower required.
If you gotta run TPI for emissions I'll still recommend the Scoggin Dickey kit. On my low-buck TPI engines I did everyting I could to improve flow through the stock L-98 heads (this was before there was such a thing as Vortec heads). Then I went crazy doing every "free mod" I could think of on the engine. I also used SLP intake runners with the upper plenum matched to their odd "figure-8" opening shape. 1.6 Rockers were added to the otherwise stock valvetrain. Exhaust was 1-5/8" headers, and a complete 3" exhaust (using a 3" cat). Like you, I had to pass emissions- and did with flying colors.
Still, I doubt I made more than 300 or so peak HP at the flywheel. Making power with a nearly stock TPI was a little more difficult back then- not as many good bolt-on heads back in the early 90s. Had to make do with the crummy factory castings.
Like you, I ran a factory Mass Airflow Sensor type TPI system. Stock chip- no programming changes. I figured the MAF would compensate for any airflow changes. In hindsight I think a custom chip would probably make more power, but custom chips where like "way high tech" back then. Not may people knew what they were doing with them. Again, we made do with what we had access to.
01-31-2004, 12:42 PM
#22
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Location: Richmond, Va
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ok, here's what i've got. I put the setup into my desktop dyno program and then changed from the line graph view to the table view so that it shows you all the engine specs and the specific power ratings at different RPMS. I havnt really tweaked the cam, so im sure it's possible to pull just a little more power out of it. this is just a rough draft, If you will.
I also just put 800 cfm in the air flow spot because i dont know exactly what the TPI system is capable of, and i didnt wanna put in unrealistic numbers. so here are two screen shots of my desktop dyno with the two different compression ratios:
http://www.angelfire.com/va/Mettalic...04hp95comp.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/va/Mettalic...2hp105comp.jpg
let me know what you guys think
I also just put 800 cfm in the air flow spot because i dont know exactly what the TPI system is capable of, and i didnt wanna put in unrealistic numbers. so here are two screen shots of my desktop dyno with the two different compression ratios:
http://www.angelfire.com/va/Mettalic...04hp95comp.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/va/Mettalic...2hp105comp.jpg
let me know what you guys think
01-31-2004, 03:07 PM
#23
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Location: Phila., PA
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You've got a different version of Desktop Dyno than me so take the following comments as potentially "not applicable"
I'd spec in small tube headers and mufflers. 1-3/4" headers are not what Desktop Dyno considers "large tube"
I'd also drop the CFM on the intake flow down to about 650. Yes, I know you can buy larger throttle bodies that flow well beyond that, but the whole intake system of small diameter runners, etc. will knock that down quite a bit.
I ran my own DD simulation using similar parameters, except where noted above.
With AFR 190/195 heads I got about 425HP @ 5500-6000
With a lesser set of heads like stock Vortecs or World Products Sportsman II heads I get about 395 @ 5500.
Stock heads with no porting you're down around 350 @ 5000-5500
Frankly, I think they're all fairly optimistic extimates, just going from my personal experience.
I'd spec in small tube headers and mufflers. 1-3/4" headers are not what Desktop Dyno considers "large tube"
I'd also drop the CFM on the intake flow down to about 650. Yes, I know you can buy larger throttle bodies that flow well beyond that, but the whole intake system of small diameter runners, etc. will knock that down quite a bit.
I ran my own DD simulation using similar parameters, except where noted above.
With AFR 190/195 heads I got about 425HP @ 5500-6000
With a lesser set of heads like stock Vortecs or World Products Sportsman II heads I get about 395 @ 5500.
Stock heads with no porting you're down around 350 @ 5000-5500
Frankly, I think they're all fairly optimistic extimates, just going from my personal experience.
01-31-2004, 03:31 PM
#24
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I'll never build this motor, here's the new ( 
) plan:
LT1 Heads (Modified for use on SBC)
LT1 Intake (Once again modified)
XE 224/230 (Streetable, powerful, Idle-~6k)
With a good tune that should net me mid-high 12's from what I read. That's the main stuff. Otherwise just a typical rebuild with stronger rods/hyperuetic pistons (.030"). I've got my eyes on a couple sets of heads/intakes I'll let everyone know what happens.
) plan:LT1 Heads (Modified for use on SBC)
LT1 Intake (Once again modified)
XE 224/230 (Streetable, powerful, Idle-~6k)
With a good tune that should net me mid-high 12's from what I read. That's the main stuff. Otherwise just a typical rebuild with stronger rods/hyperuetic pistons (.030"). I've got my eyes on a couple sets of heads/intakes I'll let everyone know what happens.
01-31-2004, 04:08 PM
#25
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so you think there's no way to get that kinda power? i mean, i admit 500hp from a 350 with no boost is.... well i'd have to see it to be convinced. but I dont think it's out of reach if i use quality parts
01-31-2004, 08:54 PM
#26
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CamaroStylin... those numbers aren't realistic for a TPI. See how peak power occurs beyond 5k rpm, while the engine will rev that high, it will be so choked for air that it won't actually make peak power. The torque I can believe because a TPI is incredible when it comes to low end torque. Also, try entering the cam specs at .050 and see what you come up with.
Rip... for what you're going to spend modifying the LT1 heads to make them work on a SBC, you're better off buying a set of aftermarket heads. The LT1 intake can be made to work as well, but then again, you're getting close to the price of a Stealth Ram which requires no modification to make it work (if you're got enough hood clearance anyway).
Ps. If you want 500 hp from a small block, you're better off building a 383 or a 406. It's alot easier to get 1.2 hp/cid than it is to get 1.5 hp/cid. There's no replacement for displacement. Well, there is, but we won't get into that here.
Rip... for what you're going to spend modifying the LT1 heads to make them work on a SBC, you're better off buying a set of aftermarket heads. The LT1 intake can be made to work as well, but then again, you're getting close to the price of a Stealth Ram which requires no modification to make it work (if you're got enough hood clearance anyway).
Ps. If you want 500 hp from a small block, you're better off building a 383 or a 406. It's alot easier to get 1.2 hp/cid than it is to get 1.5 hp/cid. There's no replacement for displacement. Well, there is, but we won't get into that here.
Last edited by 97WS6SCharged; 01-31-2004 at 08:57 PM.
01-31-2004, 09:38 PM
#27
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Originally posted by 97WS6SCharged
Rip... for what you're going to spend modifying the LT1 heads to make them work on a SBC, you're better off buying a set of aftermarket heads. The LT1 intake can be made to work as well, but then again, you're getting close to the price of a Stealth Ram which requires no modification to make it work (if you're got enough hood clearance anyway).
Rip... for what you're going to spend modifying the LT1 heads to make them work on a SBC, you're better off buying a set of aftermarket heads. The LT1 intake can be made to work as well, but then again, you're getting close to the price of a Stealth Ram which requires no modification to make it work (if you're got enough hood clearance anyway).
Intake: $50
Aluminum to block cooling passages: $10
Welding: $50
Decking: $50
Porting (Heads/Intake): $0
Modifying intake: ~$50 (machine work)
That's $460 for an awesome setup. You can barely even buy a set of bare Iron heads for that. Another $580 (CMotorsports Cam Kit GP) and I've got $1040 + typical rebuild costs for a mid 12 second 300+rwhp aluminum headed motor.
Plus the project will be fun. I'm set on this one I promise!
02-01-2004, 07:56 AM
#30
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I'd like to read up on how to modify reverse-flow LT-1 heads for use on an older SBC.
There are several people who have used modified LT-1 INTAKES on older style SBC heads but I've not heard of anyone using a modified LT-1 intake AND head.
Where did you find info on how to do that?
There are several people who have used modified LT-1 INTAKES on older style SBC heads but I've not heard of anyone using a modified LT-1 intake AND head.
Where did you find info on how to do that?