Oh, I'd love to watch this one .

 

before you guys think i'm digging on Raybob, i'm not.
lets get some info out there before i go on.
i race in CMC, and have for 2 years now. i've ran a 98 Z28 in HPDE since 1999till i went to wheel to wheel in 2005.
my 98 made 450+hp/420+tq @ the wheels.
my 95 CMC Camaro makes 225hp/285tq @ the wheels. its 3250 post race. stock 98-02 brakes.
i took 2nd this year in Texas and 3rd @ Nationals.
Mid Ohio was new to both me and Raybob. my best lap was a 1:43.6, to his 1:44.6.
i know he had some issues later in the week, so i dont know if that 1:44.6 is his best time, or even a healthy time.
he has well over 100hp @ the wheels on me. he has more tire. he has more brake. i think he has 100lbs on me too.
i bet money i could pull a 1:40.xxx @ Mid Ohio in his car ONCE i made spring rate changes to it. i bet i could use the same set-up i have in my CMC car to do it. maybee drop 25lbs in rear rate to help get the HP down. put 32mm front/ 21mm rear bars on it. i've offered Raybob my info.

no rear bar is not the way to go. i've said more than i feel i should have @ this point. if you try it, good luck to ya.
Raybob - hope to see ya @ Hallett this year if we all deside to make the COMA event in like May or something.

 

I say maybe, or maybe not Glenn--my set up is not so much different from the UE and similar set ups that a lot of you guys run....and yet, so far, I am 3+ seconds a lap faster WITHOUT the swaybar. Now....I AM gonna put the bigger bar on the front and run the rear FULL soft in testing next time to see it I can deal with the rear swaybar or not. We will see.....

It is also easy to say "let me drive your car and watch me fly with a proper set up," but that may be a bit brash on your part. I am now turning lap times better, or within a few tenths of Alan Blaine's best ITE CHAMPIONSHIP TIMES....and he ran a conventional set up...... now being a good Texas boy, maybe you could whip Alan's *** all day but I doubt it.

As for World Challenge cars....I don't see many Camaros...do you? I know, I know there are a few good examples of WC Camaros of old....LG's and some others I have actually patterned a lot of my car after....but the ones I saw had the "spade type" of driver adjustable custom rear swaybars...I dunno the specs on them, but they may be very light on the rear bar....but at any rate, the Camaro in WC was an underdeveloped platform....

I say driver preference/style also has alot to do with it.....

 

I dunno Raybob enough to know how good a driver he is, or if that was a bad day or what, but a good AI AIX car SHOULD be 3+ seconds a lap faster depending on the track....maybe more. In my case, running the rear bars, I was slightly faster than CMC...without, I am near where I should be 4+ seconds a lap faster

32mm/21mm bars on my car would suck.....I had 32mm/19mm adjusted DOWN with a UE setup and taking the rear off was MUCH better....

 

have you ever considered that the reason you cant get the rear to work is the problem is w/ the other end???? too much spring w/ too much bar?

compair lap times to other UE set-up cars to my times @ Mid Ohio for the National event. i am not a gifted driver. trust me.
i also know of one person who has tested the UE set-up vs where i'm @ back to back the same day on thier car and them drove my car. they are going away from the UE set-up.
i'm done, as i've already said way more than i should have.

no rear bar rocks.

 

Sheesh Glenn...you gotta stop with the extremes...brash, definative statements....on one extreme then thin skin on the other...

I am sorry, in my mental Roledex, you were on a UE, or UE similar, setup. I know you are not a Sam setup kind of guy.

I am not a brainless UE soldier either...if you have noticed in my posts at frrax, I have bastardized Jason's set up quite a bit...mostly softening the spring rates. I am at 950/400 with a lowered PHB. Jason was pushing me towards a 1100/500 set up. I will say the set up is AWESOME for braking. I hated my original soft set up under hard braking because of brake dive.

And YES, I am WELL AWARE that the issue with the rear of my car now is very likely the FRONT set up. All of my conversations with Jason of late have been directed to working on the front to fix the rear. I softened the front bar from 32mm to stock 30mm and that helped. I am hesitant to go down on the front spring due to the stability under braking that I now enjoy. But, you are correct, I may need to....just trying to avoid it because I may solve one thing by hurting another.

By the way....what are your spring rates now?

 

i have jasons shocks, and they do kick ***. i did have him valve them for alot less than he wanted to, and i run less spring than they are valved for. i am not as much as a believer as i once was.
i'm not upset w/ any of this. it good talk, so dont take my coments as being upset.
a softer rate will help braking. transfering weight up front adds grip under braking. look in other places to get you stability under control. too much camber will hurt braking. too much caster will hurt stability. the more you de-cell the worst it gets. you are very correct about on thing affecting another. you have to find the happy balance or all things - spring rate, camber, caster, .... things you know.

 

Cool

I agree....less front spring = more grip under braking. My orginal set up was just WAY too soft. 650/175. I went with Jason, and I am probably too stiff. He is VERY RESISTANT to soften the springs on his set up when you talk to him...I have, and I agree with you, I may need to soften them more...but I don't want to go too far the other way.....grip under braking has not been an issue yet......I am looking for a nice smooth consistent entry...

I feel close to where I want to be....just not quite there....

 

I'm that other guy.

Going from xxx rate DOWN just 100lbs in rate gained me 3 seconds in my car. Unbelievable.

Glenn's is further down the rate chart than I am and I took his car out immediately after I made the changes to mine and was AMAZED at the handling differences.

In a single long right-hander in mid 3rd gear, my car originally could maintain the line under even throttle. When I made the change, I could steer the car and put the car where I wanted it to go. In Glenn's car, I could do it under acceleration.

I wish I had installed the timer in Glenn's car so that I could make lap time comparisons. But alas ...

Finally, I had a friend take my car out and then Glenn's car and he had similar thoughts when comparing the 2 cars.

The only differnece between my car and Glenn's is front spring rate and shock valving.

I'm now looking at a point somewhere between Strano and Jason.

Raybob, lifting a front tire makes for good photography and marketing. It even looks cool from my windshield ... But you really need that car flatter, gripping with 4 tires and not 3. JMHO.

 

Ah, now the discussion gets good. I agree with both of you guys....I have been seeking something between Sam and Jason for some time as well.

I originally started talking to Sam and "made him" put together a set up that was much STIFFER than he was comfortable with. 650/175 spring and 32/19 bar. I didn't like that much at all for stability....car was moving all over....everywhere.

Then I went with Jason and "twisted his arm" on a set up that was much SOFTER than he wanted to go. 950/400 (lowered PHB) and 32/19 (UE adjustable softened). I immediately loved it...much better than the soft set up IMHO. As time went on however, I was having slight grip issues off of corners.....I disconnected the rear bar....like you Mitch....3+ seconds a lap. I am LOOKING hard for a compromise to get the car to not push on exit now.

I know you CMC guys are all James Bond with set up, but can either one of you pm me with where you are on rates/bars? I, being an SCCA guy, rarely see any of your competitors, and if I do, I swear to secrecy...

 

one question - how much more rate do you think 315's will require you to run over a 255/16? my guess is 50-100 lbs and that is if you have the 35mm front.

 

....ah yes...you guys and your dinky, hard as a rock, Toyos....

I forgot about that. I would say 100 lbs at least. I have a 30mm on the front now....had a 32mm on it but it pushed too much. I am going to test a 35mm bar next time out in conjunction with reconnecting the rear full soft.

If that test is unsatisfactory....which I don't have great hopes on...I had planned to reduce the front spring by 100 lbs or so....

 

I think that is where the line is drawn. We have few or no choices on sway bar and tire.

So we are only left with searching for spring rates and tire pressures.

It's not that we are "James Bond", it's just that we have such a finitie database on specifics. You know as well as anyone that the "package" has to work together.

Once you get the "package" close, 1/2 pound changes in air pressures makes a HUGE difference.

 

Hey Mitch & Glenn,
I beat Kyle Watkins AS track record at LaJunta with the lap pictured.
My 96 SS has 353HP at the rear with 950# springs in the front and 250's in the rear. I run Penske adjustable shocks front and rear and my car was set up this year for the 2 Colorado tracks LaJunta (the Wheelie Pic) and Pueblo.
Mitch can vouch for me that I had been having tranny problems all year. Rebuilt my T56 twice and it still took a crap at Mid-Ohio. I am always open to
suggestions for set-ups. At mid-ohio I garantee I would have run at least 2 seconds faster w/out a rear swaybar. Everyone told me I would be faster at Mid-ohio with the 19mm rear bar. I couldn't drive the car with the rearbar.




Post Script:I also ran A sedan the last 2 years in a 3rd gen and these 2 cars are completly different.

 

Just imagine how fast you'd be as a 4 wheeler instead of a trike ...