This post got me thinking...

Funny that comes up, my Camaro is going in the shop Monday for warranty work. The drivers side window doesn't seal right and leaks, the hard plastic molding on the outside edge of T-tops is peeling off, and every time it has rained hard (3 times since I had the car) I have 2" of water in the trunk

Aside from bad perceived quality (materials used like the cheap plastic interior and ugly seat patterns..least on my car) most of the nagging quality problems are because of chassis flex. The platform is old, and being a hatch back with T-tops and no window frames it is hard to get things to mater from the factory to begin with. Then add the massive power, lack of a full roof (even solid roof models only have the T-top bar up there structurally) and you have a huge chassis flex problem. That causes a lot of the leaks, squeaks, and rattles that pop up over time. Things like rattles in the dash ect are also caused by things flexing and coming loose. If GM had added say SFC's from the factory or other bracing it would have drove the weight up 100-200lbs, decreased fuel economy and performance, and even cause crash issues testing issues because it would be in a different weight class. In reality GM did all they could with the current chassis as far as keeping it modern and one of the safest cars on the road (around a 4-5 star crash rating). Other problems I hear people complain about are things like window motors and switches which leads to the 4th gens other problem...dated bits here and there. The cruise control and ignition especially reek of the 80's and I am sure thing s like window motors date back to that era too. To redesign all those bits or make newer versions fit would have nickel and dimed the F-car up a couple thousand dollars....which IMO isn’t worth it...especially when they knew the car would die in 95.

Mechanically the car is as stout and sound as any car on the road and if driven normally the drive trains last as long if not longer than other GM cars. Most F-body owners however are harder on their cars then they would be a non-sports car and expect it to hold up just as long. Of course realistically that is NOT the case. Also a large percentage of F-cars are modified, but when they break the owners complain about GM. I am sorry, but if you have more than a K&N and maybe a catback...you have no right to complain about any drive train quality issues. Also the more you mod, the more power the chassis has to handle. WOT launches with a 400-450+hp are just going to increase chassis flex and lead to squeaks and rattles quicker.

No one focus's on the improvements GM did make to the car over the years...

Things like....
-Made a trans cooler standard on the Z28 last year.
-Gave the V6 cars standard Z28 spec rear brakes.
-Made safty features such as ASR dirt cheap so they came on most every car.
-Made the Monsoon stereo cheap enough that it could come on any model.
-Upgraded the interior once...thank god my new car doesn't have the "launching pad" cup holder my 95 firebird did. They added rear cup holders and an extra 12 volt plug.
-in 2000 they added the new LS1, though only 5 HP stronger.....it was better than what Dave Hill and the Corvette team wanted. Seems GM didn't have the production capacity for more LS1's with the Corvette selling and all...so it was considered seriously to give the Z28 a 310 HP V6 (probably a supercharged 3800) to cure the shortage. After a tough fight we see who won


I know I am forgetting stuff......

Either way....I think GM spent their limited F-car budget where it counted most

 

As far as my 99 went... initial quality was actually very good... but things started to 'come lose' after putting some milage on it.

Like I've said before, my Monte Carlo SS (2002) is lightyears ahead of my Camaro in terms of 'build quality'...

A new, modern Camaro will be much much better, I'm sure. That is what it needed more than anything... the old platform was just old.

 

Anybody who has owned a 3rd gen and a 4th gen can attest to the quality improvements. The 4th gen may have been lacking compared to other cars at the end of its run, but in 1993 it was a massive improvement over the old car and was very modern. Say what you will about styling, etc. but the 4th gens are better built cars and benefitted from a "let's fix what's wrong with the 3rd gen" approach to the design.

Chassis flex in the 4th gen is only a fraction of what it was in the two thirdgens I owned. You want to talk about squeaks and rattles? 2-4 times as bad in my third gens, and t-tops leaks were incredible. And this is not comparing apples to oranges, this is comparing an '85 Camaro that was 7 yrs old when I bought it to my '96 TA which is now 7 yrs old. I can tell the '96 is going to last in a way the other car never did.

Another plus is the 4th gen door hinges don't seem to wear out and sag like the 3rd's did.

I have the Motor trend that has the 1st test of the '93 Z28, I believed they claimed the car went from being the least rigid on the market in '92 to the most rigid on the market. Then the Olds Aurora supposedly surpassed it. Now, of course it is far from a "rigid" platform, but that it because the benchmarks have moved.

The answer to rigidity is to move away from a unibody platform and toward a hydroformed frame rail setup like the vette.

 

Man get lost Rob? The lounge is the other way

 

Squeaks? Rattles?

Can't hear 'em.

If you want to improve the quality perception of the vehicle you own, try a full open exhaust sometime. Squeaks and rattles will no longer annoy you.

My rear end used to whine... can't hear that anymore either. I think my exhaust cut-out fixed that too.

 

I have owned an 89 Camaro and a 99 Camaro, and I agree with everything you said.

4th Gens were much better in build quality than 3rd gens... but they just weren't up to par with other modern cars.

I am confident that will all change with the 5th Gen.

 

I'm not even talking squeaks and rattles... but annoyances like:

Failing power window motors.
Interior trim pieces that don't fit, like power window button bezels.
Vent outlets that are so far off from the dash pad, you wonder how they even stayed in place.

There is a bunch more, but you get the idea. I'm not knocking the 4th Gen, I loved mine.. the design was just that of another era as far as some of the parts and their design.

 

I like the way you think.
My Borla isn't loud enough to solve my small rattles so I just Jam my Bose System all the time.
I plan to solve these little problems on my Z this summer with true duals.

 

Great thread, Personally I love the car, sure I curse at the packaging engineers any time I work on the motor but thats what you get for the styling.

I've had my car since I bought new in '96. Over the years it's developed the customary squeeks and rattles which are expected for this type of car. However when the phrase "build quality" is uttered I do have a few gripes, some of which have already been brought up.

1. Intake oil leak, definite build problem, possibly even due to the design with the egr pipe so close to the rear intake seal speeding up the seal degradation.

2. That blasted catalytic converter hump in the passenger floor!! Everyone that rides in my car makes fun of this. Since the 4th gen cars were a chance to start with a new design why is it still there? I've never seen any other car with it. Not a build issue but design.

3. Window motors should not wear out in 5 to 6 years, its funny how both of mine went at the same time.

4. window scratches due to poorly designed widnow guides.

4. Water pump seems to have a limited life also.

These are just a few things I think GM could have done better on, maybe they even addressed them in the newer models. I totally understand many of the cost saving features of the car, (inexpensive interior, reusing older technology like the turn signal arm etc.) Most of these parts for me have stood the test of time. I just think, if by some miracle they do come out with a new f-body in the years to come, they pay attention to many of the little things, which when added up reflect poorly on the overall appeal of the car.

 

quality seems to be hit or miss.. I think I came out lucky, since nothing is really wrong with my car (99)

my quibbles:

*my seat mounts look like they are starting to rust

*Power window slow/straining

*buttons to power windows and locks feel mushy

*Noticed when the car interior is really cold, and then the heater is put on full hot blast, peices around the radio and HVAC controls rattle and squeak a bit till they too warm up.. probably due to expansion and contraction

*exposed screwheads (don't really mind though)

I have a rattle in the back (slightly loose aftermarket exhaust) and my springs(at least I hope thats what it is!) creak sometimes.

Car seems to not mind rain (and it rains alot here).. My driver side t-top occasionally lets a drop by though now..

Thats really about it though.. My first impression when I stepped in it the first time and testdrove one was, "wow, this put together alot better than I expected!" after hearing all these horror stories..

And even under that one instance of, ah, serious operator error in shifting... it still got me home - which was 120 miles away..

Like what others said, they did a decent job trying to keep the 4th gen platform up to par.. If GM fixes these small interior quibbles and improves its quality consistancy in a 5th gen, it would be one awesome car..

You'd think GM could leverage their size and buy high quality interior parts to be used accross the board... I hope thats what they did when they said they are imporvign quality..

 

Interesting...

The only problems I had on my 95 were missing bolts on the front suspension, and a leaking rear main seal. Other than that I have no major complaints.

 

Oh yeah,

Add rear main seal to the list mine leaked to the point where it ruined my clutch.

Thanks!

 

With the exception of 1 headlight motor which was replaced under warranty, I've had no mechanical issues with my car at all except those I created by modifying it. I do have a window motor dying but its been dying for 4 years now and just now is getting really bad.

I'd also like to mention in reply to mobleman that my wife's '99 blazer also has a converter hump, though its less pronounced.

 

I honestly think that it all comes down to the way you treat the car and how it came off of the line, some cars are just built better. My 89 has almost none of the "common" problems that people complain about with the Third Gen. Its 1 of the most solid cars I've ever been in, and its definetly over 100,000 miles. My friend with a 4th Gen has pretty much no problems that 4th Gen owners usually complain about. Both do not have SFC's, both have T-Tops that do not leak, rattle, or make stupid sounds without reason, because any car will make noise sometimes. I've been in Thirds that felt tighter/better than some 4ths and in 4ths that felt better than some Thirds. Why is this?? Its either because we both take care of the cars or because we got good 1's, who knows?? IMO ALL F-Bodies, ALL Gens need SFC's and should be the 1st mod. To me, all the problems can really be fixed if you want to put the effort into it. To have the window seal right you need to take off the door panel and adjust it.

But SFC's would not add 200 lbs. if they came from the factory or whatever. I know for Third Gens, tubular Spohn SFC's can be had that are like 28 lbs. T-Top cars also got some extra bracing and it made no real difference in weight either.

 

a buddy of mine works at a GMC/Pontiac dealership, so i layed the questions on him before i got my t/a. he said the window motors fail because the window seals dry up really badly, causing the motors to work harder than they need to and eventually fail. he told me to treat the t-top and window seals with silicone, and i should avoid any problems. i have, and so far, nothing's wrong (knock on wood). other than my stupid rotors already warping, i have no complaints.