I can believe that. I'm in the proccess of replacing the felt stabilizers and outer window seals with felt guides in my doors right now (and of course the motor). Perfect example of a bad design still. The three felt guides on the outer seal in my driver side door are in terrible shape, the rearward one actually rusted to the point where I found it in pieces at the bottom of the door.

 

I have a friend who put subframe connectors on his 93 Camaro at 5k. Now at 60k with 20k of the miles on a 450 hp motor not including the juice that has been used at the track the car has no rattles.

I solved the flex problem with some welded in doubble diomound subframe connectors and a strut tower brace. Soon will be a cromoly tubular front subframe with the same treatment done to the upper and lower contol arms. Oh and the 6 point removeable side bar cage will help stiffen the car up plenty with no compromise of front seat access.

Wile everyone is bitching and moaning about chassi flex and ratles Ill be making 9.80 to 10.20 passes in my full weight, A/C having, t-top sporting pump gas wasting 01 Camaro SS.

 

I couldn't agree more. I'm approaching 50k miles on my 99' and have been quite pleased so far. It doesn't get too many pampered miles either My only problem has been an idler pulley that was causing a squeal. I have no interior squeaks, other that some t-top rattles on cold days. That being said, there is certainly room for improvement on the 5th gen. I would like to get some richer looking materials myself.

 

Before I start debunking some the F-body quality complaints, I think I should point out that we're talking about inexpensive cars. Some of the material choices made in the F4 are acceptable at the the $25k+ pricepoint of a Z28, but similar quality levels in the $40-50K C5 Corvette just feel plain cheap. In both cars, the carpets feel fairly thin, and the leather isn't anything to brag about either. It doesn't bother me that much, however.

As far as water leaks, I haven't had a single problem. To be fair though, I garage my Z28 constantly when it isn't on the road. I also take tremendous car in washing the car - I'd hate to think what a high pressure spray could do to the vulnerable weatherstripping. The rubbers seals in a T-top equipped F-body are fragile, and I can see the potential for longterm problems. My suggestion is that you'd better keep your gaskets clean and lubricated, and be exceptionally ginger with T-top removal. Window gaskets don't last forever, but you can do alot to forestall the inevitable.

Body rigidity and rattles have been a non-issue for me as well. Sure, I've noticed phantom noises, but the causes are never structural or assembly related, such as a resonance in the springs of my unoccupied passenger seat. However, I've seen alot of well-used F4s that feel loosey goosey, and elderly F3s can feel downright floppy.

The biggest problem is that unitized bodied cars loosen up with age and abuse, something traditional body-on-frame sedans and trucks resist much better. My Camaro has already seen alot of rough road miles in its short life, including almost daily jaunts off pavement. My secret is that I reduce speed instead of pounding and bottoming out the suspension. To be fair, I'm also running the base Eagle GA tires and the standard suspension. While I've run enough miles to state that body rigidity concerns will probably never be a problem for my Z28 coupe, I wouldn't make the same statement for a SS convertible.

 

I think a lot of it has to due with road conditions as well. We have terrible roads up here in metro detroit, and seven years of roads that physically have more patches than original road can do a number on the suspension/frame. I'll admit it, after 150,000 miles, my car is a rattle trap when driving in detroit. However when I head back to western/ central NY it's night and day, the car feels great when the roads are well maintained.

 

Id like to say, that I LOVE fbody interior. Call me a weirdo. I cant stand all this retro crap lately. Just gimme my flat BLACK plastic cockpit like interior, and Im good to go.

As for quality issues. My AC vent is loose. I have come kind of rattle coming from the T-tops. Car has been in for warranty repairs for....

AC compressor
T-stat
An electrical prollem
Two speakers blew out
My hatch never opens on the first try. I have to open it, lift the hatch like im trying to open it, even tho I know it wont open, then click it again.

 

Before 2000 or so, the Camaro's interior was kind of a sore subject for me. There was nothing wrong with the '93-96 dash design, except for alot of hard plastic in very obvious areas. It was distinctive, but it was also a product of it time.

I like the post '97 dash, despite the fact that the air vents are shared with everything from the S-10 to the Venture minivan. But I really dig on the steering wheel from 2000 onward. I like the audio controls, and I like the fact that it is has a large diameter and thicker rim. It's amazing what a difference a stupid '95 Monte Carlo steering wheel can make in my enjoyment of a car, but it does.

On the other hand, the interior of the C5 Corvette was a major disappointment for me. No steering wheel audio control, and no decent sport seats. Beyond that, the interior materials are nothing to brag about. As a plus though, the Bose system gives a cleaner sound than the Monsoon stereo in the Camaro, but only if you listen to something other than hip-hop.

 

As long as you don't go mod-happy, in which case all bets are off, I think the F-cars are reliable. I have had great reliability with my 94Z and my 98SS. They start every time, and have never stranded me. The chassis are not as stiff as newer chassis, and some of the accessory items are dated, but other than that, they have good quality. A 5th gen must correct these problems, but there is no question that GM would address these matters with an all-new chassis, just to keep up with the new Mustang. Most of the folks I see who complain about F-body quality have a car with high mileage, or modded all to hell, in which event you have no basis for complaint.

A recent Autoweek had a long term test of the C series Mercedes wagon, which costs about 45K--it had been to the shop about 10 different times for unscheduled repairs in less than a year--twice to repair a shifter that just broke to pieces. My Camaros have been much better than that.

 

quick,

I have to disagree with you here a bit. Yes, my car is high mileage, but that doesnt mean that all of my issues have happened in the past year or so.

for example
1. intake oil leak started the first year, dealer fixed it once under warranty, I fixed it twice since then.
2. Window scratches, started when the car was 2 to three years old
3. water pump, well mine did buy it last year, but I still think this is too short of a life for such a critical part.
4. Oh, and one of my biggest beefs, the elastic band on the sun visors. I have never ever used these and they slowly became more and more slack. I had to cut the driver side one off last year since it was in my line of site!! Never used!!

I'm not complaining about the normal wear and tear on the car due to high mileage, just the components and parts which seemed to be poorly designed or incorrectly installed.

Let me just add that I still love my car, I love the fact that I have 150,000 miles and still have a very strong engine. As the normal wear and tear problems pop up, I enjoy fixing them...

 

I will respond:

I'll grant you 1--it was a service bulletin item

2--all glass will scratch under certain conditions. If you wash your car regularly, it shouldn't be a real problem

3--last year on a 95 model? You mean you dare mention an 8-year-old water pump with 135,000 or more miles on it? Puh--lease!

4--again, your car is 8 years old; the elastic on my underwear does not last 8 years, either.

I am not trying to be too glib, but your complaints are typical of what I'll term "unrealistic expectations." On top of the age and mod issues I mentioned above, I see people on this board who go to the track one a month and then complain that their rear axle goes south, or their car rattles, etc. If you race, you break. No one should race their car without expecting it to break much more often than if you treat it well. That should be common sense. Heck, when I was a kid, no one bought used F-bodies because we all knew they'd been ragged out, a 1/4 mile at a time.

 

I will respond in kind,

1. Visors: Exactly my point, these cars are lasting 7+ years and the elastic on the visors of mine started drooping when the car was 3 years old. Why design using a material which won't last. I wouldn't think visors would be on anyones regular maintenance list at 100,000 miles. I would guess elastic is a good choice for underwear, I don't know anyone who wears it past 1 year, let alone 8.

2. window scrratches: caused by a the inner felt stabilizers (qty 3 on each side) which wore out prematurely (3 to 4 years). Has nothing to do with how frequently I wash my car. (And I take meticulous care) Might I also mention that GM has actually updated the felt quides, at least on the outside seal to help remedy that problem. (Im glad to see they conitnue to make an effort to improve)

3. I'll concede on the waterpump. Like I said before, as the parts break I enjoy fixing them, and sure, 100,000 plus miles is good for a wp. Hell, I'm replacing a starter right now, no complaints there.

I haven't mentioned that parts of my car are breaking due to racing. Matter of fact my car has never been raced, on the track or road. I treat my car very well, I have friends tell me that I'm obssessed with keeping my car in good condition. Having said that I just want to make it known that my opinions are not those of a "drive it like you hate it" owner. My car has been used as a daily driver, and for the enjoyment value, not to beat the crap out of it then get pissed off because something broke due to my actions or negligence. I don't think my opinions should be grouped with those who have "unrealistic expectations".

 

No flame here--you are entitled to your opinion. But, I think it reasonable to expect an 8 year old car to break--a lot.

As far as racing goes, you did not say you raced, and I did not mean to imply you did; however, no one I know who has a V8 Camaro doesn't get on it hard from time to time--otherwise, what's the point? There are people I've read on this board who have said the car shouldn't break, even if raced, because GM should know we are going to race them and build them extra tough--and then keep the price below 30K. I think anyone would have better luck buying a used Buick than a used F-Body because grandma has never floored that Buick.

My point here is I think folks have unrealistic expectations for what is, really, a cheap car that still performs like more expensive performance models. Also, I think F-bodies do get ragged harder than many other cars. Maybe not yours, but most. I take great care of my car, and I try to avoid hot standing starts, but I do run it hard once I get it moving--heck, that's why we own them! I expect to live with tires, belts, hoses and brakes that wear out fast, moving parts that will break, etc. And as my car gets older, I'll expect more breaking. I think that's just fair.

Anyway, I hope the 6th gen is a better car, and I am sure it will be. In the meantime, I enjoy my SS a lot, and for the money, I think it's a blast and has been quite reliable.

 

I replaced my 89 Formula with an 02 Z28. If I had not been satisfied with the quality & reliability of the 89, I would not have bought the 02, which except for styling is the superior car in every way. For what the cars cost they were steals, and the plain-jane interiors were just fine with me. I just want a go-fast rwd V8, and I don't want to pay for above-average anything except performance. And if the 89 Formula's reliability is any indication of the 02 Z28's, I have a decade or more of trouble-free driving ahead of me.

 

Well, being lucky enough to work for a GM dealer (but not lucky enough to have bought my car brand new) I was able to run the warranty history on my car...only things replaced?

1) Hood stripes 3 times! Wonder why...
2) Intake gasket at 8k, then replaced again when I bought it at 40k
3) Pinion seal at 14k
4) Rear shocks at 22k

Thats it...all I've done is SFCs, an STB, and the power steering pump went last summer...with 49k on it, she's tight as ever, and my PW motors both work perfect

 

My car has a fair bit of squeaks and rattles, and the plastic piece between the windshield and the dash on the a-pillar shakes when I drive. My windshield cracked one day while the car was parked. I just had to replace my water pump, which while it was leaking took out my optispark, also replaced.

When I was at the dealer, I noted the warranty history was fairly long, including service for a cracked windshield, and a transmission replacement at 60k.