Boss Mustang: It's coming.
05-18-2010, 09:31 AM
#76
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05-18-2010, 10:08 AM
#77
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By "splash" I mean the car everyone is talking about. The one which makes every magazine cover. The one that everyone notices as it burbles into a cruise night parking lot. The one which wins all the performance comparisons. The one which becomes the media's darling. The one which makes people who can't afford this one, buy a more affordable V6 or GT Mustang.
The classic halo effect......
Last edited by Z284ever; 05-18-2010 at 10:14 AM.
05-18-2010, 10:35 AM
#79
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You know, for years on this board, before the Camaro came out, we talked about how important it was to differentiate the various Camaro models. I even remember Scott chiming in on the importance of that.
So, where is that differentiating stuff? You literally need to be a nerdy Camaro expert to tell the subtle differences between the barely different Camaro models.
LS, LT???? - you might as well call them LMNOP. These are not rental cars going to Avis (mostly not).
This whole line-up needs to be renamed and rehashed so people recognize and have some connection to what is what.
For years/decades, the base car was called "Sport Coupe". That gives me a warmer feeling inside than the generic "LS". The upscale model was Berlinetta or SS. That talks to me more than a numeral "2" in front of SS. And the badass one was Z/28 - which we don't yet have at all.
Somehow, telling someone that you just bought an RS 2LT doesn't have much of a ring to it.....
So, where is that differentiating stuff? You literally need to be a nerdy Camaro expert to tell the subtle differences between the barely different Camaro models.
LS, LT???? - you might as well call them LMNOP. These are not rental cars going to Avis (mostly not).
This whole line-up needs to be renamed and rehashed so people recognize and have some connection to what is what.
For years/decades, the base car was called "Sport Coupe". That gives me a warmer feeling inside than the generic "LS". The upscale model was Berlinetta or SS. That talks to me more than a numeral "2" in front of SS. And the badass one was Z/28 - which we don't yet have at all.
Somehow, telling someone that you just bought an RS 2LT doesn't have much of a ring to it.....
Last edited by Z284ever; 05-18-2010 at 10:49 AM.
05-18-2010, 10:47 AM
#80
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We all know why they did it the way they did, to fit into Chevy's current model scheme. But it does bring up an interesting point. You really need to do your research to understand what the difference is between LS and LT, and 1SS and 2SS. To make things worse, you have 1LT and 2LT. 
And none of those letters bring any emotion, except for SS - which I think is diluted by the numbers used in front of it.
Charlie, Berlinetta is a terrible name and needs to be left in the 80's.
And none of those letters bring any emotion, except for SS - which I think is diluted by the numbers used in front of it.Charlie, Berlinetta is a terrible name and needs to be left in the 80's.
05-18-2010, 10:54 AM
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This is true. still two inches longer than the current car which is the same width, but a few inches shorter)
Definetly a cool car, I remember finding a white Boss 351 in local junkyard. the car was smack in the middle of three stacked cars with engine, trans, and rear end stripped. It was in rough shape, but probably salvagable from a restoration standpoint had it not been the baloney in a three car sandwhich 
Unfortunately, there were very few tests of the Boss 351, due to the death of muscle cars. It was likely one of the top 3 musclecars of 1971.
05-18-2010, 10:59 AM
#83
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Let's just say that GM didn't necessarily execute the Berlinetta concept very effectively in the '80's.
This is what GM ripped off the Berlinetta name from:
It was Ferrari-speak for a fast, luxurious coupe. The car a gentleman might drive around town when he wasn't in his Ferrari race car. I think Chevy sort of undershot this a bit.
But I also think, that this is a vacuum in which a Camaro Super Sport could thrive in. #2 in my three Camaro lineup: "The Luxury GT".
05-18-2010, 12:49 PM
#84
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A few quick notes - generalized...
The next Mustang (and this Boss car is the guinea pig for the work) WILL be lighter. We are already prototyping/making parts for the Mustang (and other Fords) that are weight-specific. Imagine your machine operators putting each part on a digital scale at the QC station to get a red or green light on the weight of each part. Yes, every single part. We have max/min part weights we have to hit now - scale gives a green light if in spec, red light if too heavy or too light. There is other work I can't speak of on this board too, but suffice to say that weight is now a big issue at Ford (all models, but Mustang in particular).
Boss 302 and Boss 429 (street versions) were both "forced" production units that were results of racing directives. The Boss 302 was required to homologate the Boss 302 competition car in the Trans-Am series - I think B-class required at least 100 units to be produced and sold to the public. The BOSS 429 was the same situation except that engine was designed 100% for NASCAR use and only the engine/drivetrain was required to be produced and offered for sale to the public for homologation - again I think the minimum was 500 engines for this one. Both of these were spurred by the Racing program at Ford and both took place simultaneously. One did not follow the other chronologically or in product development of any kind. The only curious thing about the Boss 429 was that Ford decided to use a Mustang to house the homologation engines and sell to the public instead of using a Torino/Cyclone which was actually the cars that would be using those engines in NASCAR. That was the bizzarre action on the part of Ford. It should be noted however that there are a SCARCE few Cyclone Spoilers produced with the 429 Semi-Hemi mill under the hood too. (huge Cha-Ching for these rare cars today)
Homologation rules are what drove Ford to offer these cars - period. They were never planned as public-offerings en-masse. This explains why you never saw a Boss 429 race in SCCA or Trans-Am competition - it was a NASCAR powerplant - not a drag race unit, nor was it a good handling car in any way with an extra few hundred pounds dead-centered between the front wheels.
The Torino was in-fact a midsized unibody. It was the first platform in which Ford went to upper/lower control arm front suspension with the spring between the arms and moved away from the infamous "shock-tower". That would be the beginning of the VERY famous Mustang-II front suspension with similar design, but smaller proportions, and the M-II would incorporate the rack-and-pinion unit that changed everything for handling and hot-rodders. Cooler yet... there were about 8 different versions of the Torino body, including 2 and 4 doors, fastbacks, sedans, and even wagons! And all in the same year.
Factoids...
* There were just a few Boss 351s that were raced in 1971 and 1972, but they were privately owned and had no factory backing. They never got naotionwide fame and fortune or the big spotlights the way the factory-backed units fielded by Bud Moore or Carroll Shelby did.
* There was actually a 1971 version of the Boss 302 - at least inside the walls of Ford. Concept was done in early 1970 and there are pictures of the car floating around. The incredible performance and durability of the 351-C in basically the same packaging simply convinced planners to go with the 351-C for 1971 instead of the 302, but the Boss 302 was conceptualized and mocked-up by Ford.
* In the few months between design-lock, building the cars, and the racing deadlines for seasonal qualification in 1971, Ford pulled the plug on all racing - making the best Boss ever an instant bastard child. Ford, Dodge, Plymouth, Chevrolet, and Pontiac all pulled the plug on their Trans Am support before the start of the 1971 season. That left Roger Penske's AMC Javelin team with nothing but older cars and privateers for competition during the year.
* The 1971 Mustang was in-fact made a bit larger to accomodate the 429-SCJ (Super Cobra Jet) engine and driveline. This engine was the dynamic driver for the dimensions of the engine bay - including clearance between shock towers. The 429 SCJ was a very strong performer, but not on a curvy road. Sad thing is, the Boss 351 was faster on BOTH the 1/4 and the curvy's. Anyone that thinks weight does not matter should study this situation alone. The 429 simply struggled for grip - even though it had the power.
* The reason behind Mustang getting bigger and the fantastic engine programs at Ford from 1968 until 1971 was a "GM reason". He was a pushing force for the racing program as a whole, and was a proponet for the Boss program in general. This same former GM employee working at Ford signed an executive order requiring a last-minute redesign of the 1971 Mustang to house the 429-SCJ. He literally over-rode a Lee Iacocca decision to make it happen. Anyone remember the GM guy that did this?!?!
* Aerodynamics and the styling of the 1969 Shelby Mustang were the influences for the body of the 1971 Mustang. Aero in particular for the racing programs. The 1971 - 1973 Mach 1, the Boss 351, and the standard Mustang fastback has the most horizontal rear window ever on a production vehicle (14* from horizontal as I recall).
* Aero packaging on the 1971 helped in in NHRA dragracing even if Ford pulled out of SCCA and Trans-Am. There were numerous Mustang Funny cars fielded with this new aero package, and they were hugely successful (if not funny-looking). Anyone remember Shirley Muldowney? Connie Kalitta? Don Nicholson? Mickey Thompson? All ran the fat '71-3 Mustangs with huge success.
* Ford continued to offer what was essentially a Boss 351 after 1971 as an "R-code" called the 351-HO. It was a Boss 351 without solid lifters and a little less compression. They were rocketships just like the Boss 351, but you could getthem in any Mustang bodystyle and without all the spoilers and scoops. These are the most coveted of Mustangs as they are the most extreme factory "sleeper" Ford ever made.
* The 429 Semi-Hemi (CJ and SJC head design) that was homologated by the 1969 Boss 429 for use in NASCAR was a huge success - IN NASCAR. It won the 1969 Championship for Ford in the Torino Talladega body.
Look carefully below and you can see the "BOSS 429" emblem on the valve cover of this 1969 Ford Torino Talladega... same exact engine as in the Mustang Boss 429.
Food for thought and facts over fantasies... enjoy!
The next Mustang (and this Boss car is the guinea pig for the work) WILL be lighter. We are already prototyping/making parts for the Mustang (and other Fords) that are weight-specific. Imagine your machine operators putting each part on a digital scale at the QC station to get a red or green light on the weight of each part. Yes, every single part. We have max/min part weights we have to hit now - scale gives a green light if in spec, red light if too heavy or too light. There is other work I can't speak of on this board too, but suffice to say that weight is now a big issue at Ford (all models, but Mustang in particular).
Boss 302 and Boss 429 (street versions) were both "forced" production units that were results of racing directives. The Boss 302 was required to homologate the Boss 302 competition car in the Trans-Am series - I think B-class required at least 100 units to be produced and sold to the public. The BOSS 429 was the same situation except that engine was designed 100% for NASCAR use and only the engine/drivetrain was required to be produced and offered for sale to the public for homologation - again I think the minimum was 500 engines for this one. Both of these were spurred by the Racing program at Ford and both took place simultaneously. One did not follow the other chronologically or in product development of any kind. The only curious thing about the Boss 429 was that Ford decided to use a Mustang to house the homologation engines and sell to the public instead of using a Torino/Cyclone which was actually the cars that would be using those engines in NASCAR. That was the bizzarre action on the part of Ford. It should be noted however that there are a SCARCE few Cyclone Spoilers produced with the 429 Semi-Hemi mill under the hood too. (huge Cha-Ching for these rare cars today)
Homologation rules are what drove Ford to offer these cars - period. They were never planned as public-offerings en-masse. This explains why you never saw a Boss 429 race in SCCA or Trans-Am competition - it was a NASCAR powerplant - not a drag race unit, nor was it a good handling car in any way with an extra few hundred pounds dead-centered between the front wheels.
The Torino was in-fact a midsized unibody. It was the first platform in which Ford went to upper/lower control arm front suspension with the spring between the arms and moved away from the infamous "shock-tower". That would be the beginning of the VERY famous Mustang-II front suspension with similar design, but smaller proportions, and the M-II would incorporate the rack-and-pinion unit that changed everything for handling and hot-rodders. Cooler yet... there were about 8 different versions of the Torino body, including 2 and 4 doors, fastbacks, sedans, and even wagons! And all in the same year.
Factoids...
* There were just a few Boss 351s that were raced in 1971 and 1972, but they were privately owned and had no factory backing. They never got naotionwide fame and fortune or the big spotlights the way the factory-backed units fielded by Bud Moore or Carroll Shelby did.
* There was actually a 1971 version of the Boss 302 - at least inside the walls of Ford. Concept was done in early 1970 and there are pictures of the car floating around. The incredible performance and durability of the 351-C in basically the same packaging simply convinced planners to go with the 351-C for 1971 instead of the 302, but the Boss 302 was conceptualized and mocked-up by Ford.
* In the few months between design-lock, building the cars, and the racing deadlines for seasonal qualification in 1971, Ford pulled the plug on all racing - making the best Boss ever an instant bastard child. Ford, Dodge, Plymouth, Chevrolet, and Pontiac all pulled the plug on their Trans Am support before the start of the 1971 season. That left Roger Penske's AMC Javelin team with nothing but older cars and privateers for competition during the year.
* The 1971 Mustang was in-fact made a bit larger to accomodate the 429-SCJ (Super Cobra Jet) engine and driveline. This engine was the dynamic driver for the dimensions of the engine bay - including clearance between shock towers. The 429 SCJ was a very strong performer, but not on a curvy road. Sad thing is, the Boss 351 was faster on BOTH the 1/4 and the curvy's. Anyone that thinks weight does not matter should study this situation alone. The 429 simply struggled for grip - even though it had the power.
* The reason behind Mustang getting bigger and the fantastic engine programs at Ford from 1968 until 1971 was a "GM reason". He was a pushing force for the racing program as a whole, and was a proponet for the Boss program in general. This same former GM employee working at Ford signed an executive order requiring a last-minute redesign of the 1971 Mustang to house the 429-SCJ. He literally over-rode a Lee Iacocca decision to make it happen. Anyone remember the GM guy that did this?!?!
* Aerodynamics and the styling of the 1969 Shelby Mustang were the influences for the body of the 1971 Mustang. Aero in particular for the racing programs. The 1971 - 1973 Mach 1, the Boss 351, and the standard Mustang fastback has the most horizontal rear window ever on a production vehicle (14* from horizontal as I recall).
* Aero packaging on the 1971 helped in in NHRA dragracing even if Ford pulled out of SCCA and Trans-Am. There were numerous Mustang Funny cars fielded with this new aero package, and they were hugely successful (if not funny-looking). Anyone remember Shirley Muldowney? Connie Kalitta? Don Nicholson? Mickey Thompson? All ran the fat '71-3 Mustangs with huge success.
* Ford continued to offer what was essentially a Boss 351 after 1971 as an "R-code" called the 351-HO. It was a Boss 351 without solid lifters and a little less compression. They were rocketships just like the Boss 351, but you could getthem in any Mustang bodystyle and without all the spoilers and scoops. These are the most coveted of Mustangs as they are the most extreme factory "sleeper" Ford ever made.
* The 429 Semi-Hemi (CJ and SJC head design) that was homologated by the 1969 Boss 429 for use in NASCAR was a huge success - IN NASCAR. It won the 1969 Championship for Ford in the Torino Talladega body.
Look carefully below and you can see the "BOSS 429" emblem on the valve cover of this 1969 Ford Torino Talladega... same exact engine as in the Mustang Boss 429.
Food for thought and facts over fantasies... enjoy!
05-18-2010, 02:54 PM
#86
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A few quick notes - generalized...
The next Mustang (and this Boss car is the guinea pig for the work) WILL be lighter. We are already prototyping/making parts for the Mustang (and other Fords) that are weight-specific. Imagine your machine operators putting each part on a digital scale at the QC station to get a red or green light on the weight of each part. Yes, every single part. We have max/min part weights we have to hit now - scale gives a green light if in spec, red light if too heavy or too light. There is other work I can't speak of on this board too, but suffice to say that weight is now a big issue at Ford (all models, but Mustang in particular).
:
The next Mustang (and this Boss car is the guinea pig for the work) WILL be lighter. We are already prototyping/making parts for the Mustang (and other Fords) that are weight-specific. Imagine your machine operators putting each part on a digital scale at the QC station to get a red or green light on the weight of each part. Yes, every single part. We have max/min part weights we have to hit now - scale gives a green light if in spec, red light if too heavy or too light. There is other work I can't speak of on this board too, but suffice to say that weight is now a big issue at Ford (all models, but Mustang in particular).
:
Here's hoping that GM is not caught flat footed...
Last edited by Z284ever; 05-18-2010 at 02:56 PM.
05-18-2010, 03:42 PM
#87
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Hmmm...it will be interesting to see what happens. I know there are some on here that believe the Mustang will GAIN weight - despite what is being said.
Me? I'm hoping all of them lose a signficant amount of tonnage. Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, etc. More choices for me.
Me? I'm hoping all of them lose a signficant amount of tonnage. Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, etc. More choices for me.
05-18-2010, 06:26 PM
#88
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I'd also argue that LT does have historical significance for Camaro if you count "Type LT" which in itself replaced "SS" for a portion of Camaros existence. However I digress as this is after all a Ford Boss thread.
I honestly hope the Boss holds true to its heritage while creating a car a level between the Mustang GT and GT-500. I also hope Ford doesn't f it up with a lot of garbage. A "Boss" badge and at most a clean but simple "Boss" stripe package is enough (on top of the performance mods). If stripes are std. make a stripe delete option available. Keep it simple and more bare bones musclecar and less neutered boulevard cruiser.
Last edited by jg95z28; 05-18-2010 at 06:30 PM.
05-18-2010, 11:04 PM
#90
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