BREAKING: Ford announces it will build all-new Police Interceptor for 2011
11-21-2009, 11:13 AM
#61
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Couple more notes (since I don't get a chance to spend as much time as I'd like around here anymore)"
1. 25 billion isn't alot of money if a car company is turning decent profit. Ford made 1 billion in profit last [b]QUARTER!!!.... And that's in a depressed market!....While making payments on that loan!!
2. People (and trust me, you are by no means the only one Branden) look at that large loan Ford has, and completely forget basic accounting. I went into this in detail on another thread (and at least 2 other members did as well), but to simplify it I present this sceneario:
You have a 30 year loan on a 100,000 home. You are pulling in about $4,500 a month (about $54,000 per year). Your monthly expenses (including your morgage) and personal spending (eating out, movies, etc...) is only $2,000 per month, which means you are socking away $2,500 per month (saving roughly $30,000 per year).
Even though you are morgages.... YOU HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY TO SPEND.
So does Ford.
The only reason we know what is coming in future Mustangs is not because too many people have hands in Mustang's pot, it's because Ford spends so much time getting feedback and input from Mustang owners and potential buyers....and they talk.
However, Mustang is Mustang. Mustang is not any Ford sedan derived off of it, of which Ford would keep it's cards closer to it's chest.
I'll give you every point except one.... seeing AWD as a plus.
Police departments purchase cars based on getting the most and most useful vehicle they need out of meager procurement budgets funded by taxpayer money that doesn't look too kindly on bells and whistles on police cars.
But it's not just the guys responsible for allocating money who are likely to nix an expensive AWD car. If you are running a police, state trooper, or highway patrol office as a chief or constable, are you really going to spend money on AWD if:
1. For the price of AWD, you can buy a few extra cars.
2. The Charger is quicker & cheaper.
3. The Impala is cheaper, more tossable and already has winter traction.
4. The Caprice has the room, balenced rwd dynamics, and a price that's on par with Crown Vics?
5. You already have AWD Tahoes for those "snow days".
Again, we'll find out for sure early next year (I believe New York's car show).
I know that some sites say Falcon and others including the respectible Automotive News say Taurus. However, in both cases, that is their conclusion.
I can tell you that Ford of Australia is NOT making a police car for the US, and the Falcon (at least THIS Falcon isn't designated for the US shores.
I can tell you that Ford still DOES have a D2C based sedan in the drawer, however, as long as the Taurus is the focal point of everything, I don't believe this car will happen (it may likely end up as the next Aussie Falcon & Fairlane, though).
However, I wouldn't quite dismiss the Panther just yet.
Ask yourself a few of questions.....
a. Is the Panther paid for and capable of handling safety regulations of the immediate future?
b. Is the Panther (whose development was paid for back when most members here weren't even born) capable of turning a profit on as few as 40K cars even with redesigned sheetmetal and an updated drivetrain, suspension, and braking components?
c. Finally, does this all make business sense?
I think everyone already knows the answer.
See....
.... even though you were trying to prove the exact opposite, YOU even created the basis and a business case for a modern Police Interceptor that would pass muster!
Getting the picture?
2. People (and trust me, you are by no means the only one Branden) look at that large loan Ford has, and completely forget basic accounting. I went into this in detail on another thread (and at least 2 other members did as well), but to simplify it I present this sceneario:
You have a 30 year loan on a 100,000 home. You are pulling in about $4,500 a month (about $54,000 per year). Your monthly expenses (including your morgage) and personal spending (eating out, movies, etc...) is only $2,000 per month, which means you are socking away $2,500 per month (saving roughly $30,000 per year).
Even though you are morgages.... YOU HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY TO SPEND.
So does Ford.
The other reason I have my doubts about a Mustang based sedan is simply how many people have their hands in the Mustang pot. We seem to know everything that happens with the Mustang 12-24 months before it happens because of all the leaks in that progam (intentional or not). I really think it would be impossible for a sedan tied so closely to the Mustang to be a year from production without a peep untill a Ford press release.
However, Mustang is Mustang. Mustang is not any Ford sedan derived off of it, of which Ford would keep it's cards closer to it's chest.
If you ignore for a second that the Taurus is based on a FWD platform..in terms of size and dimensions, it is perfect size for Police duty. With it's roots in a Volvol platform it is also pretty safe. I am also thinking that Ford is thinking with Crown Vic gone, and Carbon, Charger, Caprice likely costing more than CV..that they can get more money for Taurus. Also..I am willing to bet some police departments will see AWD as a plus.
Police departments purchase cars based on getting the most and most useful vehicle they need out of meager procurement budgets funded by taxpayer money that doesn't look too kindly on bells and whistles on police cars.
But it's not just the guys responsible for allocating money who are likely to nix an expensive AWD car. If you are running a police, state trooper, or highway patrol office as a chief or constable, are you really going to spend money on AWD if:
1. For the price of AWD, you can buy a few extra cars.
2. The Charger is quicker & cheaper.
3. The Impala is cheaper, more tossable and already has winter traction.
4. The Caprice has the room, balenced rwd dynamics, and a price that's on par with Crown Vics?
5. You already have AWD Tahoes for those "snow days".
While I would love a RWD sedan from Ford..I just think their has to be more chatter before I drink that Kool aid.
I know that some sites say Falcon and others including the respectible Automotive News say Taurus. However, in both cases, that is their conclusion.
I can tell you that Ford of Australia is NOT making a police car for the US, and the Falcon (at least THIS Falcon isn't designated for the US shores.
I can tell you that Ford still DOES have a D2C based sedan in the drawer, however, as long as the Taurus is the focal point of everything, I don't believe this car will happen (it may likely end up as the next Aussie Falcon & Fairlane, though).
However, I wouldn't quite dismiss the Panther just yet.
Ask yourself a few of questions.....
a. Is the Panther paid for and capable of handling safety regulations of the immediate future?
b. Is the Panther (whose development was paid for back when most members here weren't even born) capable of turning a profit on as few as 40K cars even with redesigned sheetmetal and an updated drivetrain, suspension, and braking components?
c. Finally, does this all make business sense?
I think everyone already knows the answer.
.... even though you were trying to prove the exact opposite, YOU even created the basis and a business case for a modern Police Interceptor that would pass muster!
Getting the picture?
Last edited by guionM; 11-21-2009 at 11:18 AM.
11-21-2009, 04:28 PM
#62
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Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,873
Not a chance.
A compartment engineered for a transverse engine can not be modified for an engine sitting 90 degrees different without spending a chockfull of money and taking quite a bit of time. Especially with a unibody design. You are essentially creating a whole new structure.
A simple new floorpan on the 4th gen Camaro to eliminate that passenger floor hump would have required revalidation of the entire structure, including a new round of crash testing. Imagine what changing the whole front structure (as well as the floorpan since you'd need to shape it for a transmission tunnel) would require.
It's far cheaper simply to streach the D2C (easily done).
A compartment engineered for a transverse engine can not be modified for an engine sitting 90 degrees different without spending a chockfull of money and taking quite a bit of time. Especially with a unibody design. You are essentially creating a whole new structure.
A simple new floorpan on the 4th gen Camaro to eliminate that passenger floor hump would have required revalidation of the entire structure, including a new round of crash testing. Imagine what changing the whole front structure (as well as the floorpan since you'd need to shape it for a transmission tunnel) would require.
It's far cheaper simply to streach the D2C (easily done).
I think all of the options are quite expensive to develop, but Mustang Sedan and modified Panther are probably the least expensive to produce.
Last edited by WERM; 11-22-2009 at 11:48 AM.
11-22-2009, 01:26 PM
#64
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Location: Payson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,178
I can pretty much guarantee, that Ford WILL NOT degrade their flagship (Taurus), by making a Taurus P.I.
Will they use the platform........... maybe.
Will they use a partially developed D2C platform......... maybe.
Will they use an upcoming Falcon platform (which seems to have a redesign date right around Mustangs)............ maybe.
Will they use a Panther........... doubtful.
Will they use the platform........... maybe.
Will they use a partially developed D2C platform......... maybe.
Will they use an upcoming Falcon platform (which seems to have a redesign date right around Mustangs)............ maybe.
Will they use a Panther........... doubtful.
11-22-2009, 04:52 PM
#65
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http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...pment-of-31418
Now, YOU show me where Ford says the Taurus will become a police car.
I'm also not very sure how far away logic has run away from some people here, let's stop being silly here long enough to realize that if Ford is in fact going to make a RWD vehicle, they are going to use a legthened version of the D2C (which as most people here seem to have forgotten is based solidly on the DEW-98 S-E-D-A-N), and not create a Frankenstein car of hacked bits here and tacked on bits there.
Again, and I'm begining to think memory has taken a holiday with some of our long time residents, a simply change to a load beating structure affects the entire structure, and the entire structure has to be revalidated and tested. This entire conversation was hashed out back when we were talking about 4th gen floorpans and changing or updating "A" pillars.
Only this time, instead of talking simple "A" pillars and floor stampings, we're talking an entire front end structure? How does this new front end structure relate to the floorpan (which is moot since the Taurus's floorpan is incapable of housing a RWD drivetrain especially the transmission, which will require...gasp!...a new floorpan!) How does it relate to side inpact? Roof structure? rear end impact?
In short, you change the front, you engineer a whole new car.
Meanwhile, you have a ready to go D-class chassis.
Lets get real.
Taurus is a FWD-AWD automobile.... and you aren't gonna change that because it's engineered that way.
Any and all future Ford RWD sedans will be based on the D2C platform.
Ford would have said they will make a Police version of the Taurus if it was going to be a Taurus. It isn't a state secret, nor would it be. I wouldn't rule out a car with enough sheet metal changes that it wouldn't look like a Taurus, but it most certainly isn't going to be a Taurus.
I still solidly believe that it will be RWD (and note, I say believe, not stating it as solid fact).
If it is RWD, the cheapest route is a reskinned Crown Vic with a new drivetrain and revised suspension. I falls in line with Ford talking with police departments and finding out what they need. Over 70% of those police departments drive Crown Victorias, not FWD Impalas or IRS Chargers. I suspect they aren't exactly giving Ford advice on how to make a FWD Taurus-like police car. I suspect they are giving input on making a better Crown Vic.
I can also see Ford setting up a small assembly line to make next gen, D2C based Aussie Falcons here for police use the way GM set up a small assembly line to make shortened and chopped Commodores to sell as Camaros.
But if you're expecting RWD Tauruses, you're about as far out as you can get and still be capable of living unassisted.
I can pretty much guarantee, that Ford WILL NOT degrade their flagship (Taurus), by making a Taurus P.I.
Will they use the platform........... maybe.
Will they use a partially developed D2C platform......... maybe.
Will they use an upcoming Falcon platform (which seems to have a redesign date right around Mustangs)............ maybe.
Will they use a Panther........... doubtful.
Will they use the platform........... maybe.
Will they use a partially developed D2C platform......... maybe.
Will they use an upcoming Falcon platform (which seems to have a redesign date right around Mustangs)............ maybe.
Will they use a Panther........... doubtful.
But the 2 things that were made clear:
1. It isn't the Falcon and isn't coming from Australia.
2. It it's not a Taurus.
The Falcon's current platform's days are numbered, and it still seems the next Falcon will be based off of the Mustang's D2C platform.
I agree with all your maybes.
But we can bury both the current Falcon coming here as a police car, and we can also bury the Taurus (especially an AWD SHO based one) as the Ford's next police Interceptor.
Next Falcon or a spinoff of the Taurus, perhaps.
But I still suspect an updated Panther.
Last edited by guionM; 11-22-2009 at 05:27 PM.
11-23-2009, 12:14 AM
#66
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Location: Payson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,178
As Ford has said that it WILL be made in the US, I would pretty much bet AAI. This is a flex plant, and a RWD flex plant.
Also, unlike GM, I would almost guarantee that whatever the car is, it WILL have a civilian version available.
Everyone needs to remember that Ford has been looking for a way to bring back a RWD sedan. A plant that has excess capacity, along with a product that has a built-in market, would allow them to play with the niche (don't fool yourself into thinking this will be mass market).
They didn't spend weeks, pouring over the Q3 financials, for ****s and giggles.
Remember that noone does a profitable niche, like Ford.
Also, unlike GM, I would almost guarantee that whatever the car is, it WILL have a civilian version available.
Everyone needs to remember that Ford has been looking for a way to bring back a RWD sedan. A plant that has excess capacity, along with a product that has a built-in market, would allow them to play with the niche (don't fool yourself into thinking this will be mass market).
They didn't spend weeks, pouring over the Q3 financials, for ****s and giggles.
Remember that noone does a profitable niche, like Ford.
11-23-2009, 02:08 AM
#67
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 35
As Ford has said that it WILL be made in the US, I would pretty much bet AAI. This is a flex plant, and a RWD flex plant.
Also, unlike GM, I would almost guarantee that whatever the car is, it WILL have a civilian version available.
Everyone needs to remember that Ford has been looking for a way to bring back a RWD sedan. A plant that has excess capacity, along with a product that has a built-in market, would allow them to play with the niche (don't fool yourself into thinking this will be mass market).
Also, unlike GM, I would almost guarantee that whatever the car is, it WILL have a civilian version available.
Everyone needs to remember that Ford has been looking for a way to bring back a RWD sedan. A plant that has excess capacity, along with a product that has a built-in market, would allow them to play with the niche (don't fool yourself into thinking this will be mass market).
11-23-2009, 06:14 AM
#68
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Location: New England
Posts: 3,749
For the longest time I was wondering if it was panther.
and like pointed out it has the lowest costs and meets the regs for anything new made.
now the points made. The CV was loved by the police. So why not keep what works.
More power and better handling...all that can be done for cheap on this platform.
now here is my thought..
Old platform, new Engine, new suspension, new interior, new exterior ....new name??
Like the 98-02 Fbodies (sheetmetal)and the more recent Ford 500 to Taurus change(name recognition).
Could this new skinned panther be a cat of a different name?
Maybe this new car will be called Falcon and introduced here as such.
New name, new look and new powerplant. Nothing the CV had. but going forward Ford can do this car for police duty and with the fresh face produce it for all profit for the public. Go after the larger RWD sedan market thats been gone for a while now..and in public I mean taxi and livery service..
Everyone I talk to that are in the biz that need a car like this..they all lovethe CV and I think Ford knows this now.
and like pointed out it has the lowest costs and meets the regs for anything new made.
now the points made. The CV was loved by the police. So why not keep what works.
More power and better handling...all that can be done for cheap on this platform.
now here is my thought..
Old platform, new Engine, new suspension, new interior, new exterior ....new name??
Like the 98-02 Fbodies (sheetmetal)and the more recent Ford 500 to Taurus change(name recognition).
Could this new skinned panther be a cat of a different name?
Maybe this new car will be called Falcon and introduced here as such.
New name, new look and new powerplant. Nothing the CV had. but going forward Ford can do this car for police duty and with the fresh face produce it for all profit for the public. Go after the larger RWD sedan market thats been gone for a while now..and in public I mean taxi and livery service..
Everyone I talk to that are in the biz that need a car like this..they all lovethe CV and I think Ford knows this now.
11-23-2009, 11:08 AM
#69
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Location: Ontario
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I'm curious about this. I'd always heard that the CV was never really embraced by the police. I believe the old Caprice really was truly loved by the police, and I even remember some departments refurbished old B-bodies for as long as they possibly could before having to resort to CVs. So could "loving" the CV be more a matter of it being the best of their limited choices? (Of course we have to realize "the police" is not one person or department but rather hundreds of thousands of people and each one will have their own opinion, some liking Fords and some liking Chevys ... but I'm speaking in generalities here.)
Also, I'm not sure how "updateable" the CV is to make it on par with, say, a VE cop car. Sure they could put a bigger engine in it, but handling is a lot tougher to modernize, especially on a BOF chassis that goes back to the Carter administration. And then I'd have to ask the question, if it was easy to do this stuff on the cheap, why didn't Ford do it already?
And if Ford does keep with the Panther, it seems really odd they'd shut down the St. Thomas assembly plant and move it elsewhere. That would seem like a lot of work and cost, rather than just keeping the plant going at a smaller rate. And it would likely make the union a little bit upset.
Other random thoughts ... when GM exited the cop car business back in '97, they too made promises of offering police departments a worthy successor to the Caprice (Tahoes mainly, but also Impalas). Of course, what were they supposed to say? They had to try to make a show of keeping the business, even if they didn't have something that fit the market. So I wonder how much of this is Ford grasping at straws.
If the Panther (or a variation) does live on, does that open up the Town Car again? It's had the market to itself for quite some time, it'd be a shame for Ford to throw that all away. Then again, that probably already figured into Ford's decision to kill the Panther in the first place.
Also, I'm not sure how "updateable" the CV is to make it on par with, say, a VE cop car. Sure they could put a bigger engine in it, but handling is a lot tougher to modernize, especially on a BOF chassis that goes back to the Carter administration. And then I'd have to ask the question, if it was easy to do this stuff on the cheap, why didn't Ford do it already?
And if Ford does keep with the Panther, it seems really odd they'd shut down the St. Thomas assembly plant and move it elsewhere. That would seem like a lot of work and cost, rather than just keeping the plant going at a smaller rate. And it would likely make the union a little bit upset.
Other random thoughts ... when GM exited the cop car business back in '97, they too made promises of offering police departments a worthy successor to the Caprice (Tahoes mainly, but also Impalas). Of course, what were they supposed to say? They had to try to make a show of keeping the business, even if they didn't have something that fit the market. So I wonder how much of this is Ford grasping at straws.
If the Panther (or a variation) does live on, does that open up the Town Car again? It's had the market to itself for quite some time, it'd be a shame for Ford to throw that all away. Then again, that probably already figured into Ford's decision to kill the Panther in the first place.
11-24-2009, 12:20 PM
#71
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Location: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
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I'm curious about this. I'd always heard that the CV was never really embraced by the police. I believe the old Caprice really was truly loved by the police, and I even remember some departments refurbished old B-bodies for as long as they possibly could before having to resort to CVs. So could "loving" the CV be more a matter of it being the best of their limited choices? (Of course we have to realize "the police" is not one person or department but rather hundreds of thousands of people and each one will have their own opinion, some liking Fords and some liking Chevys ... but I'm speaking in generalities here.)
Also, I'm not sure how "updateable" the CV is to make it on par with, say, a VE cop car. Sure they could put a bigger engine in it, but handling is a lot tougher to modernize, especially on a BOF chassis that goes back to the Carter administration. And then I'd have to ask the question, if it was easy to do this stuff on the cheap, why didn't Ford do it already?
And if Ford does keep with the Panther, it seems really odd they'd shut down the St. Thomas assembly plant and move it elsewhere. That would seem like a lot of work and cost, rather than just keeping the plant going at a smaller rate. And it would likely make the union a little bit upset.
Other random thoughts ... when GM exited the cop car business back in '97, they too made promises of offering police departments a worthy successor to the Caprice (Tahoes mainly, but also Impalas). Of course, what were they supposed to say? They had to try to make a show of keeping the business, even if they didn't have something that fit the market. So I wonder how much of this is Ford grasping at straws.
If the Panther (or a variation) does live on, does that open up the Town Car again? It's had the market to itself for quite some time, it'd be a shame for Ford to throw that all away. Then again, that probably already figured into Ford's decision to kill the Panther in the first place.
Also, I'm not sure how "updateable" the CV is to make it on par with, say, a VE cop car. Sure they could put a bigger engine in it, but handling is a lot tougher to modernize, especially on a BOF chassis that goes back to the Carter administration. And then I'd have to ask the question, if it was easy to do this stuff on the cheap, why didn't Ford do it already?
And if Ford does keep with the Panther, it seems really odd they'd shut down the St. Thomas assembly plant and move it elsewhere. That would seem like a lot of work and cost, rather than just keeping the plant going at a smaller rate. And it would likely make the union a little bit upset.
Other random thoughts ... when GM exited the cop car business back in '97, they too made promises of offering police departments a worthy successor to the Caprice (Tahoes mainly, but also Impalas). Of course, what were they supposed to say? They had to try to make a show of keeping the business, even if they didn't have something that fit the market. So I wonder how much of this is Ford grasping at straws.
If the Panther (or a variation) does live on, does that open up the Town Car again? It's had the market to itself for quite some time, it'd be a shame for Ford to throw that all away. Then again, that probably already figured into Ford's decision to kill the Panther in the first place.
03-11-2010, 06:28 PM
#72
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 1,505
Ford to reveal new Police Interceptor on Friday
Looks like no RWD....
From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...#ixzz0hux3KvKS
Ford to reveal new Police Interceptor on Friday
Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
Ford Motor Co. will unveil the new Ford Police Interceptor on Friday -- the replacement for the venerable Crown Victoria that has been the backbone of the nation's law enforcement fleets since the early 1990s.
As The Detroit News first reported last year, the new model will be based on the same platform as the new Ford Taurus. However, it will be built for law enforcement work and incorporate several modifications to meet the special needs of police officers.
It will make its debut before an audience of law enforcement officials at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway, according to an internal Ford communication obtained by The News.
The Crown Vic, which is assembled at Ford's factory in St. Thomas, Ontario, will remain in production through September of 2011.
Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
Ford Motor Co. will unveil the new Ford Police Interceptor on Friday -- the replacement for the venerable Crown Victoria that has been the backbone of the nation's law enforcement fleets since the early 1990s.
As The Detroit News first reported last year, the new model will be based on the same platform as the new Ford Taurus. However, it will be built for law enforcement work and incorporate several modifications to meet the special needs of police officers.
It will make its debut before an audience of law enforcement officials at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway, according to an internal Ford communication obtained by The News.
The Crown Vic, which is assembled at Ford's factory in St. Thomas, Ontario, will remain in production through September of 2011.
