Buick #1 on Zeta list
02-24-2004, 06:33 AM
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Buick #1 on Zeta list
Both of these articles have been from the www.goauto.com.au newsletter, and will probably be available on the site soon. Some of this confirms what has been said on this site and has been known for a while. Good work people 
Oz aid a boost for Buick
By BRUCE NEWTON
STRUGGLING US brand Buick is set to be the first North American recipient of Holden’s Zeta architecture.
General Motors has plans to reposition Buick as its direct opposition to Toyota’s luxury brand Lexus. Holden technology will play a key role in making that happen.
First signs of the co-operation should come in April at the New York auto show with the unveiling of a convertible concept expected to be called Velite.
But Buick will have to wait until 2007 before being able to exploit the architecture with a production car.
And according to GoAuto sources in the US that won’t be all, with the production convertible set to follow it on to the market in 2008.
And as you can see from the launch schedule reproduced here, Zeta will also underpin Chevrolets and Pontiacs in North America. And the list we have obtained is by no means complete.
Zeta has been developed by Holden for the VE Commodore and its derivatives but, as part of GM’s global architecture strategy, the technology will be exported internationally to underpin a new generation of vehicles.
Zeta can be formatted in rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive, with V6 and V8 drivetrains and in a variety of wheelbases.
Last week, during an Australian visit, GM product czar Bob Lutz put the worldwide opportunities for Zeta at about 400,000 units per annum, but that is a very conservative number.
Zeta production is expected to start at the Buick plant in Oshawa, Canada, in 2006. In 2002 215,727 Buick Century and Regal models were built there.
Add the potential for a second US plant, Fishermens Bend production and possible European use (Saab and Opel), and the Zeta total climbs beyond 500,000.
So why Buick first? Because it’s in a much weaker state than Chevrolet or Pontiac. Last year it sold 259,348 vehicles, a 30 per cent slide from 2002.
GM plans to reposition Buick more upscale with higher prices, more standard equipment and options not offered on current models.
“It will be American premium luxury,” GM North America president Gary Cowger told Automotive News this month.
“When you think about Buick, you’ve got to think about going right head-to-head with Lexus – only (with) American premium luxury, distinguishing itself with very tasteful executions of interiors, getting back to more classic designs.”
The first step in Buick’s resurgence came at the Chicago auto show when the mid-size LaCrosse was revealed. Replacing the Regal and the Century, the LaCrosse was one of Mr Lutz’s first targets when he re-joined GM. He killed the original proposal and closely managed the exterior and interior styling re-designs.
Significantly, Mr Lutz’s previous utterances about Holdens he would like to sell in the US have not only included the Monaro as GTO and the SS utility as a Chev El Camino, but also the long wheelbase Statesman as a reborn Buick Roadmaster.
ZETA ROLL-OUT
2007 Buick luxury sedan
2008 Buick convertible
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
2008 Pontiac GTO
2008/09 Chevrolet coupe
and convertible
2009 Chevrolet Impala
2010 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Another article from the same newsletter. This might be of interest to some people.
Lutz moves to right
By BRUCE NEWTON
HOLDEN is putting up its hand to engineer the righthand drive version of General Motors’ next generation of large four-wheel drives to ensure they make it on sale in Australia.
And the chances of that happening appear to be lifting.
Former Holden boss Peter Hanenberger made it clear that he wanted to sell SUVs based on GM’s GMT360 platform here – vehicles such as the Chevy Trailblazer and GMC Envoy.
New Holden managing director Denny Mooney shares the same desire to bolster Holden’s stocks against the likes of the Toyota LandCruiser and Nissan Patrol.
The bad news for both men was that GMT360 was not designed to accept right-hand drive and is too late in its life cycle for such an expensive engineering proposition to be entertained.
The good news is that GM product czar Bob Lutz has signed off the successor platform, GMT361, to be both left and right-hand drive. The first vehicles based on this platform should be emerging in late 2007.
Mr Lutz confirmed the right-hand drive plan for GMT361 during a visit to Holden last week.
“We are not going to agonise over the business case, we are just going to do it in left-hand drive and right-hand drive,” Mr Lutz said.
“If you agonise over it you just never do it, and if we are going to compete on a global scale we have to do everything in right-hand drive and left-hand drive.”
The prospect of Holden actually working on the right-hand drive engineering package fits right into GM’s stated goal of utilising its global engineering and design facilities more fully.
It’s all part of the same philosophy that has resulted in Holden’s Zeta platform being pressed into international service.
Which is why Mr Mooney is putting his hand up for the GMT361 right-hand drive program: “We’ll probably have some packaging guys working with the North American guys to make sure we get a good package. We know how to do it, we do it today.”
And it doesn’t end there, he added. “That’s the advantage to doing this stuff globally. We have a pretty big engineering crew here and as our product lifecycles go up and down the advantage is we can do engineering work on other derivatives,” Mr Mooney said.
“If there’s a derivative for Europe or a derivative for North America we can do that right here … as long as we are not busy on our own projects.”
Oz aid a boost for Buick
By BRUCE NEWTON
STRUGGLING US brand Buick is set to be the first North American recipient of Holden’s Zeta architecture.
General Motors has plans to reposition Buick as its direct opposition to Toyota’s luxury brand Lexus. Holden technology will play a key role in making that happen.
First signs of the co-operation should come in April at the New York auto show with the unveiling of a convertible concept expected to be called Velite.
But Buick will have to wait until 2007 before being able to exploit the architecture with a production car.
And according to GoAuto sources in the US that won’t be all, with the production convertible set to follow it on to the market in 2008.
And as you can see from the launch schedule reproduced here, Zeta will also underpin Chevrolets and Pontiacs in North America. And the list we have obtained is by no means complete.
Zeta has been developed by Holden for the VE Commodore and its derivatives but, as part of GM’s global architecture strategy, the technology will be exported internationally to underpin a new generation of vehicles.
Zeta can be formatted in rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive, with V6 and V8 drivetrains and in a variety of wheelbases.
Last week, during an Australian visit, GM product czar Bob Lutz put the worldwide opportunities for Zeta at about 400,000 units per annum, but that is a very conservative number.
Zeta production is expected to start at the Buick plant in Oshawa, Canada, in 2006. In 2002 215,727 Buick Century and Regal models were built there.
Add the potential for a second US plant, Fishermens Bend production and possible European use (Saab and Opel), and the Zeta total climbs beyond 500,000.
So why Buick first? Because it’s in a much weaker state than Chevrolet or Pontiac. Last year it sold 259,348 vehicles, a 30 per cent slide from 2002.
GM plans to reposition Buick more upscale with higher prices, more standard equipment and options not offered on current models.
“It will be American premium luxury,” GM North America president Gary Cowger told Automotive News this month.
“When you think about Buick, you’ve got to think about going right head-to-head with Lexus – only (with) American premium luxury, distinguishing itself with very tasteful executions of interiors, getting back to more classic designs.”
The first step in Buick’s resurgence came at the Chicago auto show when the mid-size LaCrosse was revealed. Replacing the Regal and the Century, the LaCrosse was one of Mr Lutz’s first targets when he re-joined GM. He killed the original proposal and closely managed the exterior and interior styling re-designs.
Significantly, Mr Lutz’s previous utterances about Holdens he would like to sell in the US have not only included the Monaro as GTO and the SS utility as a Chev El Camino, but also the long wheelbase Statesman as a reborn Buick Roadmaster.
ZETA ROLL-OUT
2007 Buick luxury sedan
2008 Buick convertible
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
2008 Pontiac GTO
2008/09 Chevrolet coupe
and convertible
2009 Chevrolet Impala
2010 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Another article from the same newsletter. This might be of interest to some people.
Lutz moves to right
By BRUCE NEWTON
HOLDEN is putting up its hand to engineer the righthand drive version of General Motors’ next generation of large four-wheel drives to ensure they make it on sale in Australia.
And the chances of that happening appear to be lifting.
Former Holden boss Peter Hanenberger made it clear that he wanted to sell SUVs based on GM’s GMT360 platform here – vehicles such as the Chevy Trailblazer and GMC Envoy.
New Holden managing director Denny Mooney shares the same desire to bolster Holden’s stocks against the likes of the Toyota LandCruiser and Nissan Patrol.
The bad news for both men was that GMT360 was not designed to accept right-hand drive and is too late in its life cycle for such an expensive engineering proposition to be entertained.
The good news is that GM product czar Bob Lutz has signed off the successor platform, GMT361, to be both left and right-hand drive. The first vehicles based on this platform should be emerging in late 2007.
Mr Lutz confirmed the right-hand drive plan for GMT361 during a visit to Holden last week.
“We are not going to agonise over the business case, we are just going to do it in left-hand drive and right-hand drive,” Mr Lutz said.
“If you agonise over it you just never do it, and if we are going to compete on a global scale we have to do everything in right-hand drive and left-hand drive.”
The prospect of Holden actually working on the right-hand drive engineering package fits right into GM’s stated goal of utilising its global engineering and design facilities more fully.
It’s all part of the same philosophy that has resulted in Holden’s Zeta platform being pressed into international service.
Which is why Mr Mooney is putting his hand up for the GMT361 right-hand drive program: “We’ll probably have some packaging guys working with the North American guys to make sure we get a good package. We know how to do it, we do it today.”
And it doesn’t end there, he added. “That’s the advantage to doing this stuff globally. We have a pretty big engineering crew here and as our product lifecycles go up and down the advantage is we can do engineering work on other derivatives,” Mr Mooney said.
“If there’s a derivative for Europe or a derivative for North America we can do that right here … as long as we are not busy on our own projects.”
02-24-2004, 06:45 AM
#2
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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I think this is the bit most people here want highlighted:
ZETA ROLL-OUT
2007 Buick luxury sedan
2008 Buick convertible
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
2008 Pontiac GTO
2008/09 Chevrolet coupe
and convertible
2009 Chevrolet Impala
2010 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
2007 Buick luxury sedan
2008 Buick convertible
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
2008 Pontiac GTO
2008/09 Chevrolet coupe
and convertible
2009 Chevrolet Impala
2010 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
02-24-2004, 06:58 AM
#3
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Location: Lilburn, GA, USA
Posts: 2,072
Except for that date, 08-09 is not very encouraging and would be very dissapointing.
The rest of the articles were great though. Some very positive stuff. I think bringing Buick upscale is the right move.
The rest of the articles were great though. Some very positive stuff. I think bringing Buick upscale is the right move.
02-24-2004, 07:16 AM
#4
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Location: Ohio
Posts: 8,504
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Except for that date, 08-09 is not very encouraging and would be very dissapointing.
Except for that date, 08-09 is not very encouraging and would be very dissapointing.
I am really trying to keep a positive outlook on things, but by the most optimistic guesses, we would see a Camaro for MY2007... that is already 5 YEARS without the car...
While it may be "just one or two more years" that is an eternity, IMO.
02-24-2004, 10:28 AM
#6
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 10,285
I won't hold out until 08-09, summer 2006 is my cut off point. If there is no new Camaro I'll be buying a Mustang, GTO, or used C6.
I feel like GM spits in the face of the Camaro enthusiast every time I hear them announce a new RWD sports car/coupe like this Buick and the Solstice. The are spending tons of money and rushing development of these niche cars that don't have a loyal following and won't sell in volumes over 30,000. That time and money could have been better spent building a Camaro that would have made loyal Chevy customers happy and sold in volumes of near 100,000. GM needs to satisfy current loyal customers before trying to get new customers.
I feel like GM spits in the face of the Camaro enthusiast every time I hear them announce a new RWD sports car/coupe like this Buick and the Solstice. The are spending tons of money and rushing development of these niche cars that don't have a loyal following and won't sell in volumes over 30,000. That time and money could have been better spent building a Camaro that would have made loyal Chevy customers happy and sold in volumes of near 100,000. GM needs to satisfy current loyal customers before trying to get new customers.
02-24-2004, 11:00 AM
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Now you all know why I posted that thread a couple of weeks ago about GM bragging about the ability of bringing cars to market in 18-24 months, then either refusing to use it, or simply dragging their feet waiting to see how Chrysler's RWD cars do 1st.
The Chevrolet coupe has been in development for no less than a year, yet it won't be out for another 3 years. Holden's VE will be out at the end of next year or the very start of 2006. What's going on here??
The Chevrolet coupe has been in development for no less than a year, yet it won't be out for another 3 years. Holden's VE will be out at the end of next year or the very start of 2006. What's going on here??
02-24-2004, 12:57 PM
#9
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Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 576
Originally posted by guionM
Now you all know why I posted that thread a couple of weeks ago about GM bragging about the ability of bringing cars to market in 18-24 months, then either refusing to use it, or simply dragging their feet waiting to see how Chrysler's RWD cars do 1st.
The Chevrolet coupe has been in development for no less than a year, yet it won't be out for another 3 years. Holden's VE will be out at the end of next year or the very start of 2006. What's going on here??
Now you all know why I posted that thread a couple of weeks ago about GM bragging about the ability of bringing cars to market in 18-24 months, then either refusing to use it, or simply dragging their feet waiting to see how Chrysler's RWD cars do 1st.
The Chevrolet coupe has been in development for no less than a year, yet it won't be out for another 3 years. Holden's VE will be out at the end of next year or the very start of 2006. What's going on here??
“If you agonise over it you just never do it, and if we are going to compete on a global scale we have to do everything in right-hand drive and left-hand drive.”
I can't imagine that Lutz wants to wait for the GM delays for no good reason. I'm sure he has taken big risks in his career including the Explorer/Viper etc and they have paid off why can't the same in fact be done at GM I mean isn't that why he was brought on board in the first place???? Im confused...
He went to Australia and had them pull the GTO here within a short time frame but Zeta would take so long that people would already be driving the competitor's products and it would be EVEN HARDER to get them into Zeta vehicles.
I keep reading that GM and the big 3 is bringing RWD back and it's the best solution for them to bring these fresh exciting products blah blah blah so then why is GM "on the fence" watch DC??? just get up and go...
(now I understand why GuionM is so frustrated)... sheesh... GM if your reading this STOP wasting your time on message boards and start working hard on getting us some vehicles that will get us into showrooms..
02-24-2004, 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by ced8
...I can't imagine that Lutz wants to wait for the GM delays for no good reason. I'm sure he has taken big risks in his career including the Explorer/Viper etc and they have paid off why can't the same in fact be done at GM I mean isn't that why he was brought on board in the first place???? Im confused...
He went to Australia and had them pull the GTO here within a short time frame but Zeta would take so long that people would already be driving the competitor's products and it would be EVEN HARDER to get them into Zeta vehicles...
...I can't imagine that Lutz wants to wait for the GM delays for no good reason. I'm sure he has taken big risks in his career including the Explorer/Viper etc and they have paid off why can't the same in fact be done at GM I mean isn't that why he was brought on board in the first place???? Im confused...
He went to Australia and had them pull the GTO here within a short time frame but Zeta would take so long that people would already be driving the competitor's products and it would be EVEN HARDER to get them into Zeta vehicles...
I believe it's just GM's bureacracy. There is so many checks & balences, and hurdles, and steps, and a million and one ways to slow a product down or kill it. That means that GM is going to be inherently conservative because there are too many people more interested in not making mistakes, protecting their turf, & the CYA mentality that it's a wonder anything gets done at all.
The old Chrysler was basically run by 3 or 4 people. If they aggreed on something, it got done hella quick. Ford is almost as small. If the CEO, the finance head, the product people, and the Ford family clear something, it's going to get done (hence the Ford GT & Ford's totally commitment to the Mustang). Holden's ENTIRE board of directors consists of just 12 people. As long as they don't have to rely on GM-NA, if the CEO and maybe 2 people to support something, on the streets a year later (costing the company ridiculously little money and almost no fuss).
Meanwhile, at GM even with the dream team of Wagoner, Lutz, & Cowger they still can't get get things through to market without it being over analized to death.
I can't slam the leadership at GM, and you can't slam the people at the division level because they all want the same thing. It's that massive faceless middle management that bogs things down.
GM is simply way too big and filled with way too many people in which cars & being competitive isn't even on their top 10 list.
Last edited by guionM; 02-24-2004 at 02:22 PM.
02-24-2004, 03:02 PM
#12
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Join Date: Feb 2002
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I may have typed in a little ticked off mood and so didn't actually mention that I understand it isn't Lutz's fault at all but I always thought that is why he was there to shake things up and to help crack down on those delaying obstacles and bureaucracies.
Isn't he the Vice-chairman of GM? Shouldn't he be able to pass obstacles with Gary Cowger's help? Wouldn't the 2 of them be able to bring a Zeta vehicle as fast as the Australians...? I know there are contracts with UAW etc.. but internally this should be done already. IF a certain coupe from a US based Zeta car is in the development then I can't fathom why it would take a timeframe of 08/09.. Is there a worldwide shortage of paint???
I'm not flaming I just want to understand what it gonig on a little better. Any light shed on this would be seriously helpful thanks in advance..
Isn't he the Vice-chairman of GM? Shouldn't he be able to pass obstacles with Gary Cowger's help? Wouldn't the 2 of them be able to bring a Zeta vehicle as fast as the Australians...? I know there are contracts with UAW etc.. but internally this should be done already. IF a certain coupe from a US based Zeta car is in the development then I can't fathom why it would take a timeframe of 08/09.. Is there a worldwide shortage of paint???
I'm not flaming I just want to understand what it gonig on a little better. Any light shed on this would be seriously helpful thanks in advance..
02-24-2004, 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by ced8
I may have typed in a little ticked off mood and so didn't actually mention that I understand it isn't Lutz's fault at all but I always thought that is why he was there to shake things up and to help crack down on those delaying obstacles and bureaucracies.
Isn't he the Vice-chairman of GM? Shouldn't he be able to pass obstacles with Gary Cowger's help? Wouldn't the 2 of them be able to bring a Zeta vehicle as fast as the Australians...? I know there are contracts with UAW etc.. but internally this should be done already. IF a certain coupe from a US based Zeta car is in the development then I can't fathom why it would take a timeframe of 08/09.. Is there a worldwide shortage of paint???
I'm not flaming I just want to understand what it gonig on a little better. Any light shed on this would be seriously helpful thanks in advance..
I may have typed in a little ticked off mood and so didn't actually mention that I understand it isn't Lutz's fault at all but I always thought that is why he was there to shake things up and to help crack down on those delaying obstacles and bureaucracies.
Isn't he the Vice-chairman of GM? Shouldn't he be able to pass obstacles with Gary Cowger's help? Wouldn't the 2 of them be able to bring a Zeta vehicle as fast as the Australians...? I know there are contracts with UAW etc.. but internally this should be done already. IF a certain coupe from a US based Zeta car is in the development then I can't fathom why it would take a timeframe of 08/09.. Is there a worldwide shortage of paint???
I'm not flaming I just want to understand what it gonig on a little better. Any light shed on this would be seriously helpful thanks in advance..
The problem is that the process of getting things done at GM is all but wasteful, but ironically designed to keep the company from making mistakes. Projects still have to have a detailed business case. This includes everything from market study reports to a report on the projected plant layout, to a report on effects on the local economy & what economic breaks or advantages GM will get by producing the car at that plant, to reports on where GM will purchase parts for the car (and if outsourced, a separate report as to why a GM source isn't used) and I do mean every single screw nut & bolt on the car, to marketing clinic reports. And all this is after the model clears hurdles.
Before the car gets to the case-making stage, each step has to be approved & cleared for the next. The priority of each model is weighed & prioritized with other projects GM has going on. If it's determined that the proposed car can be done cheaper by waiting for another chassis working it's way through the system (ie: another certain car we know), it's sent back or put on ice till that chassis is ready to move on. Some cars are left in limbo because of other reasons. GM is full of ideas that simply stalled. Pontiac's been trying to get a GTO for over a decade, Chevy has been toying with ideas for a new El Camino and a RWD Monte Carlo since at least 1990, and Cadillac started their RWD move back in the early 90s!
Where Lutz comes in is that when something gets ridiculous, he can sidestep it. But he still has to go through the normal process 1st. He played blocker for the GTO, Solstice & the Colbalt.
GM had an ingrained Not-Invented-Here mentality regarding Holden, and used every excuse in the book for not bringing it here. Lutz bypassed those people and Holden put it together, making alot of GM-NA people look pretty stupid. Solstice was Lutz (and Lynn Myers) pet project. She went on and got it developed while Lutz made sure she didn't recieve any unwarranted resistance. Ditto Colbalt.
If it wasn't for Lutz (with 150% support from Rick Wagoner and strong support from the people at the product and division level) Holden would still be making cars for everyone but the US, Solstice would never have happened, Cavalier would still be around till 2006, we be panning the looks of the new Buick Regal, Camaro probally wouldn't be back till the end of the decade, and the CTSv would be a turbocharged V6 easily flattened not only by BMW M3s but by Chrysler 300C V8s and Magnum station wagons.
02-24-2004, 03:56 PM
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guionM, what are the chances that the currently published dates are nothing but a red herring and once GM can discuss the C-word without getting into any legal trouble there might be some revision in the schedule? 