Z284ever

I agree. I was really day dreaming about multiple engine choices in a 5th gen.

As for the 4th gen...you are so right. GM could have offered 10 engine choices....and that wouldn't have saved it.

Chris 96 WS6

I've been saying this for almost 10 years now. It was a huge mistake not offering a base v8. The L99 baby LT1 would have been perfect from 93-97 and of course one of the small displacement Gen 3 blocks would have been great from 98 to now. I know it adds a whole new cost dimension, but if it boosts sales 20% then you have the revenue to justify it. Only if you could prove sales would not increase significantly does it not make sense.

I know Settlemeyer has said it does not increase sales enough on paper to justify the cost, but it simply runs counter intuitive to the basics of consumerism, which is give people choices.


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Owner, Nashville Speed & Performance

1996 Trans Am WS6

RiceEating5.0

I like the base v8 idea.

Some scenario's

1. kid wants a v8 f-bod but parent's don't like the idea of their son powering a 320+ hp v8 car. They'd more likely accept a 260-280hp version.

2. Not everyone wants an ultra high hp v8 for what ever reason it might be. Some want a car with a some decent punch and not a knockout. In other words, a car that's fast but not too fast.

3. Insurance might be somewhat cheaper and gas consumed less making it more economical. Insurance rates and gas mileage are 2 of the major things that deter people from going with a v8.

4. A base v8 would be more affordable giving the buyers more options. Like in the old days, you could buy the exact car that you wanted.

I think this'd boost sales somewhat.

The base v8 on the mustang which is the Gt's is very popular.

kizz

I agree that a milder V8 would've helped the F4 to sell more. In the third gen, 82-92, there were always about four engines to choose from. That's about right for a wide target audience. Started out with one L4 (duke!), one V6, and two V8's (1982), then towards the end, it was one V6 and three V8's (1992), and inbetween it was the same thing.. more engines to choose from than anything 93+ . All the V8's were derivatives of each other. I think it would've been worthwhile to have a mild V8 rated about halfway between the 3800 and the LS1.. too late now though.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

Chris 96 WS6

There are also purists who like a coupe with a v-8 but don't necessarily want the top model, for insurance and other reasons. And I can't tell you the number of middle aged women I see driving v8 91-92 rally sports to the grocery store.

Some folks also simply like the v8 sound and the knowledge that there are 8 cyls under the hood, be they purists or not. V8s are percieved as superior to a V6, even if they are equal in power in reality.

Why do you think pickup trucks have gotten so HUGELY popular with adult males over the last 12 years? They are really the only v8 RWD vehicles out there that are reasonably affordable and have some testosterone to them. The truck fad is not all about utility and practicality, yes they can haul stuff but they aren't easy to get in and out of or to park at wal-mart. Why do you think every friggen truck out there seems to have glass packs and 4inch slash cut duals coming out the back? These are guys with these trucks, guys that in the '80s would have been driving v8 F-bodies, maybe not Z28s or IROCs, but they want a V8 nevertheless.

I see the base v8 option as a sales booster for the older buyers who simply want the V8, perhaps a lot of convertible buyers. I also see it boosting the 18-25 range, the buyers who want an F-body that can be perceived as having performance potential but cannot afford the price or the insurance on a Z or SS. I just think back to high school...everybody with a RWD '80s coupe & a V8 had at least some respect performance wise. V8 cutlasses and regals were very popular because they were cheap but with a good looking set of wheels and an exhaust sytem they took on a cool, performancy persona.

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Owner, Nashville Speed & Performance

1996 Trans Am WS6

formula79

My question is if GM could offer the F-body with multiple engines...why can't they now. Far as crash testing aren't the 5.3L and 4.8L truck engines just LS1's with different bore and stroke? I couldn't imagine it would be that hard to get them certified

PacerX

A few things would have helped the Camaro, multiple engine choices are not one of them.

1) How about some STINKING MARKETING???? The only Camaro advertisements anyone ever saw were posters.

The only times you EVER saw a fourth generation F-body in a commercial were:

An insurance company ad with the WS6 fishtailing down a wet road and some stooge telling everone not to buy their kid a fast car because little Johnny will kill himself. BUY AN F-BODY AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN. Terrific.

An ad showing a Camaro billowing steam on the side of the road and some poor, tiny, oriental girl calling for help on her cell phone. Wonderful. At least nobody mentioned serial killers in the ad.

A Chevrolet ad that shows a FIRST GENERATION convertible ('67 methinks) doing a burnout at a dragstrip. WTF??? Why not a FOURTH GENERATION convertible doing a burnout at a dragstrip?!?!? Chevrolet was STILL SELLING THOSE AT THE TIME.

The ONLY decent ad was the Pontiac ad for the Trans Am showing it destroying some car at a stoplight. Ummmm... seeing as how more Camaros are sold than Firebirds, couldn't somebody have splurged for ONE ad?


2) How about a model change in less than 10 years? Ok, it was only nine for the F-body... unless you count the suspension in back, then it was nearly 20. Hello? Anybody home? 10 year old body styles DO NOT SELL WELL. The freshening in 1998 was welcome, but didn't really address the key issues. Like the overhangs. Maybe getting rid of that hump on the passenger side floor board that was there to clear a catalytic converter THAT WASN'T UNDER THE FLOOR BOARD ANY MORE.


3) For the love of God, I have yet to understand why money was placed into certain components while others were neglected.

Number one LS1 F-body mod? A lid. Why NO ONE at Chevrolet came to the realization that intake noise is a GOOD THING to 99% of Z28 and SS owners is beyond me. AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CHEAPER TOO. PROBABLY could have paid for getting that damned hump out of the floorpan.

The clutch, prior to the advent of the Z06 clutch, was pathetic. Here's some advice.... Beat the living crap out of clutches on durability cars. If you need any help on how to do it, give me a call.


4) Related to #3... How about supporting the aftermarket? GM wants to be in the aftermarket business.... How about a Stage 2 LS1/LS6 head for less than $2000 from GM Performance Parts? How about making a complete LS1 to LS6 conversion available for a reasonable amount of money? We need a better rear end also - how about a GM Performance Parts 12-bolt for Camaro and Firebird?


***END RANT***

Z28Wilson

That's the whole point. I have to believe that GM researched the possibility of a base V8 in the 4th Gen cars, but found it to be unprofitable. They aren't going to take a "let's just try it and see" approach, unless you wanted the F-body run to end even earlier than it did.

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

Z284ever

Generally I'm a big proponant of powertrain choice. I hope we see more choice if there is ever a 5th gen.

As for the 4th gen...honestly...I believe it was beyond being helped by more engine choices....especially in the past few years.

You can only take a twenty year old platform and ten year old body (which to me looked dated in '93), and thirty year old proportions so far, before it's too late.

It was just too late for the 4th gen.

Chris 96 WS6

SS has said that they did look at it. There is such a thing as flawed analysis though, and I'd have to think their analysis was lacking in some way. This just makes way too much sense not to do it. Call me thick-headed but that's what I think.

IZ28

I disagree with some ideas expressed here against the 4th Gen. While Third Gen's today, IROC-Z 350's and Z28's are still a car to have more than the new 1's most of the time, I feel that the 4th Gen could have done great if some things were different. I also feel that if the looks were alot better and there were more engine choices it would have made a REAL difference even if they didn't advertise and make other changes that they should have. Some wanna say it wouldn't, but I've talked to MANY people in person about these things and they all agree too. I know people that bought Third Gen 2.8's and TBI's over top model 4th's. The cars just were not done right, although fast, but that 1 thing alone, as we've seen with this Gen, will not sell a car by itself.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

PacerX

Come on bro, the 2.8 and 5.0 liter 3rd gens were an embarrasment. The first thing anybody with a brain does when he wants to build a performance car out of the 305 3rd gen is REPLACE THE MOTOR.

I'd prefer one absolutely fantastic high horsepower motor and one more pedestrian 6 cylinder.

The part of the equation that folks are missing in this multiple motors discussion is that it costs money to mount extra motors in a vehicle. The number of parts proliferate quickly, transmission controls have to be revamped, it confuses the aftermarket, and complicates service.

Face a couple of facts... the full-size trucks lead the way for V8 engine development. They justify the money spent on the motors for the Camaro/Firebird by supplying the volume to make the components economically viable. A variation of those motors would be possible, but merely changing from the LS1 to the 4.8 liter would cost tons of money in drivetrain programming and development.

Save that money and spend it on the killer V8 instead.

For V6 engines, Camaro/Firebird follow the W and H bodies, that's why we got the 3.8 instead of the 3.4 later in the 4th generation's life. The high volume cars made the 3.8 V6 economically feasible in the 4th generation.

Anybody who goes after a 2.8 3rd gen when he/she can easily afford and LS1/LT1 4th gen needs his/her head examined. People who buy 3rd gen 2.8's ARE NOT in the market for a performance car.

Motors were NOT the issue with the 4th gen cars. The 3800 is a great motor, and the LS1 is a world class motor by any definition.

4th generation issues:
Styling? Yes. Clutch and rear axle? Yes. Marketing? Yes. Packaging? Yes. Quality? Needs improvement. Aftermarket? Needs improvement.

Engines?

F**K NO.

JasonK94Z

What '06 Z28?

Chris 96 WS6

I think were' talking about new car buyers here, Pacer X. Anybody in the market for a v6 thirdgen isn't in the market for ANY new car no matter what the engine. But there are thousands, millions of people who buy new cars because they want a new car, and even if a used v8 f-body was as cheap as a new v6er, perhaps they simply don't want the v8 and the want a new car.

jrp4uc

Exactly.

If the trend continues to use a family sedan variant as the base engine, it'll be hard to forsee what's going on in 4 or 5 years. As it stands, you have a 200hp V6, ~280hp SC V6, then the ~350hp LS1 and ~400hp LS6 V8s. I think a lineup something along the lines of the following may work for a 5th gen.

1. Base V6
2. V6 SC (RS type car)
3. No holds barred V8 *detuned* from Corvette (Z28 or SS, as debated--maybe just use Z28/SS name)

I would allow appearance options stating at the RS-up with the option to delete them off the V8 for more of a sleeper or subtle look. This would negate the "appearance only" benefits of the current SS/WS6 and create more of a personal "made-to-order" feeling with customers which was some of the fun of the originals. Seems like dealers would only order SS and WS6 cars the last couple years anyways; they became a lot more common.

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 25, 2002).]