I wouldn't exactly tote 41% as a number to be proud of.
If you combine all the sales of Mustang GT, Mustang Mach 1, and Mustang Cobra, that 60% of GTs with manual jumps to 65%+ of total Mustang V8 sales.

Forget Mustang or even GTO's 61% manual sales...LS1 Camaro's even worse than the take rate of manuals on the entire Corvette line (including Z06) of 45%.


No, my point here is not to rant against manuals.

My point is that of all places (let alone all enthusiast sites) a site devoted to a car whose buyers choose manual transmissions is percentage-wise just about on par with the Mitsubishi Eclipse (the sports coupe with the highest percentage of women buyers), shouldn't exactly be beating our chests about how manual transmissions must be on everything with 4 wheels.

We (as a whole) aren't exactly the hairy-knuckled, gear-headed neanderthals we like to think ourselfs as. But as a group, we seem to like to walk the walk, leaving the V8 Mustang buyers as the guys who actually put their money where their rhetoric (and evidently, their testosterone) is, and actually buy stick shifts over manuals by huge margins.... and we're reduced to combining everything together just so we can shout 41% as if that's something to be proud of.

Kind of like the kid who's proud, thinking he's a genius simply because he missed an "F" by 1 point, while everyone else in class is getting As and Bs.

(yes.... I'm being the provocative devils advocate again. )

 

Couple of other things to note: dealers don't want to stock manuals because they don't sell them and don't want to be stuck with them. Plus most sales people don't know how to drive a manual.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I think you don't understand what I am saying.

Dealers don't order what their customers want. They order what they THINK their customers want.

Manuals lost their popularity in the 70s and 80s on non-performance cars and trucks. Therefore, a lot of dealerships assumed that manuals wouldn't be popular on performance cars, either.

 

What I love about the LS3, from what I've heard, is the power gains are as great as they were for LS1 with simple mods (from that aspect, the LS2 was never as impressive) and even better with a cam change.

Gotta love these GM V8s.

 

I've always been under the impression that historically, Ford's automatic transmissions leave a lot more to be desired than GM's. Seems like the fact that our automatic transmission can actually handle some abuse ought to count for something.

 

So you believe LS2 was as big a step forward over LS1 as LS3 from LS2, do you?

 

No. You said that the LS2's power gains from simple mods were not as impressive as the LS1's, when in fact they were essentially the same as far as responsiveness to mods.

 

If you say so. The LS2 essentially had the LS6 head, LS6 block and LS6 manifold. It was basically a larger capacity LS6, which itself was a development of the humble LS1, which started life with LS1 heads, LS1 manifold and LS1 block.

The LS3 has L76 inlet manifold, and L92 heads which are essentially LS7 heads minus CNC machining.

If you believe that power gains for LS2 were the same as for LS1 then best of luck to ya.

 

Misconceived? Have you considered that maybe your notion is misconceived?

If the dealer orders a manual, and it sits on the lot, he's the one that loses money when he sells it at a bargain price after 120 days.

GM loses money too when it certifies a manual that doesn't sell.

Several companies have tried to sell manuals in segments where they are a small percentage, and most have given up. You can get a manual in a 2-door Accord V6, but not in a 4-door. Mercedes has tried on and off again to sell manuals in the C-class (currently available only with the smaller engine).

 

I'm disagreeing with you on this one. Knowing dealers myself (and the ones that post here can chime in), dealers order what people actually buy, and therefore what people want. They do tend to try to option it up to make extra money, but if buyers who actually lay down money order large numbers of manuals, that's what the dealer is going to make sure he has a decent or proportional supply of. If they didn't order what a customer wants, the customer would go elsewhere until they did find a dealer that did. Meanwhile, that 1st dealer would end up with cars rusting on their lots... and have to continue to pay to keep them there.

I'm getting a kick out of how many people (not really you in particular) here actually believe the notion that dealers order whatever on earth they want, and shove it down people's throats.

What's even funnier still is that people here are using this and every other excuse that can possibly be invented to explain away why 60% of all LS1 Camaro buyers opt to have an automatic transmission while Mustang V8s & GTOs run 60. It's amazing how deep denial goes sometimes. The truth is very simple:

LS1 Camaro buyers simply prefer automatics over manuals by a large margin.

Has nothing to do with evil dealers shoving automatics down the throats of people who don't want them.

Has nothing to do with having an automatic that can handle more abuse than a Mustangs automatic.

Has nothing to do with salespeople not knowing how to drive a manual (this one actually had made me laugh.... never heard an explaination that strained before! )

And it has nothing to do with a UN conspiracy involving black helicopters and geo-political intrigue.

Z28 buyers prefer automatics over manuals by a 2-1 margin, Camaro SS buyers get manuals at much a lower rate than Mach 1 buyers, and overall, 6 of every 10 buyers of LS1 Camaros overall prefer automatics.

It's no shame in that. But it does break a few stereotypes, doesn't it?


Ford's automatics of the 80s were bullit-proof. The electronic tranny they made in the 90s left alot to be desired (Thunderbird SCs had a habit of eating them). In recent years Ford's automatics have actually been pretty good. Their drawback is that they still have a acceleration disadvantage to manuals, where GM has closed the gap. F-body automatics are actually quicker accelerating than the 6 speed manual.

 

They're (can be) quicker off the line due to torque multiplication, but quicker accelerating in general? What's your basis for that claim? AFAIK, stock 4th-gen F-body M6 cars generally post higher trap speeds and slightly lower ETs than comparably-equipped A4 cars.

 

These two sentences are in conflict. If they option up the vehicles to make extra money, is that really what people want?

People buy what the dealer orders, not necessarily what they want. In general, people want instant gratification. They are more willing to compromise and take what they can get now rather than special order what they really want.

I have even seen cases where people have come in looking for a pickup and leave with a minivan!

Like you say, the dealer options the car up to make extra money. This may include automatic transmissions. This is not necessarily what the customer wants.

How many times have you heard, "the color (or other option) is not my first choice, but it had almost everything else I wanted."

Salemen are trained to sell the car on the lot. If a car doesn't match what the buyer wants, the saleman will try his hardest to get them to compromise.

While shopping for a vehicle, I've asked them to do a search for a specific vehicle. The salesman pretended to try to locate that vehicle, and claimed that none were available. I went home and did my own search online and found a dealer with the exact vehicle that I was looking for.

I don't think that the dealerships are "evil" and want to abolish the manual transmission. I just think that they are a little greedy and want to make as much money as possible. They can also be a little naive about performance car buyers.

 

Maybe somewhat true, but not entirely. Looking at the GTO, in 04 is was somewhere around 45% manual production. Digging a little deeper, almost all the cars that sat on lots for a long time were A4s. When i bought mine in early october 04, i'd say manuals were about 1 in 10 of the available cars at the dealerships around me, and i paid $500-1000 more for my M6 then the deal i could have got on an A4 because of it.

The dealers got smarter in 05 and 06, and they ordered greater then 60% manuals, and A4s still dominated the left overs for both model years.

What that tells me is, maybe people aren't necessarily willing to compromise on something if they REALLY want it. And if dealers were getting stuck with large numbers of hold over A4 fbodies, they would not have continued to order so many a4s. The GTO sales trend clearly shows that dealers are not all idiots and they will respond to demand to get the cars they know they can sell.

 

The fastest regular C6's are typically A6s...

I have had several manuals and automatics...for some reason I would love a really good manuamatic.