ithacamike

The last two thread on this board point out three factors that work against development of a high hp performance 5-Genny by GM---the "Corvette ceiling", insurances costs, and price.

The genius of the original Camaro/Firebirds was that they were sporty, powerful and affordable by younger buyers. With the hp-war among manufacturers now at full bore, any new intro in the former f-bodies class will have to swing 400-500 hp, which adds to the price and to insurance costs bigtime.

That tells me that GM should be looking to produce a car that doesn't have high hp ratings, but rather high hp-to-weight ratios. Imagine a 2400 lbs. Solstice with an Eco-4 rated at 250-300 hp. With a truly well-done suspension and gear box, that car would be a hoot to drive and could still remain afforable to all. True, it may not be the torque-monster that some of us desire, but it would truly fun.

Beyond my Hawk, I own a Miata too, and at 2200 and 140 hp, the car is truly spirited. I can only imagine what twice that hp and torque would do to road-time excitement.

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Owner, 2002 SLP Forumula Firehawk #738. Red, MN-6/Hurst, t-tops, chrome wheels, Magnaflow exhaust, SLP y-pipe.

Former Owner, 1996 Pontiac Formula WS6, t-tops.

guionM

You are operating from a false premise.

Insureance rates are not based on horsepower alone, but on accident claims. Current Z28s have a slightly lower rate here in California (and I'm sure it goes for most everywhere else as well) than Mustang GTs and same year Integras & turbo Eclipses. The reason is lower claims.

Though this sounds bad, it is very true...those cars have a lower average age of buyers, therefore more inexperienced drivers and consequently more accident claims. Camaro's higher average buyer's age (currently just over 40) works in it's favor.

Another very odd example was with the 1994 Thunderbird Supercoupe. In that year it had more horsepower than Mustang GT (and within 10hp of the Cobra..230 vs 240), a higher top speed than Mustang GT or Cobra and also did 0-60 within .2 seconds of a Mustang GT. Guess which had the higher insurence?

Odd as it sounds, as long as Mustang buyers average 32 years and Camaro average 40+, it doesnt matter if Chevy stuffs 500 horsepower in the next Z. As long as it doesn't crash into something more often than Mustangs, insurence will still be slightly cheaper.

The trouble is the next Camaro will need to lower it's average buyer's age to succeed. In that instance (along with horsepower increases) insurence would almost certainly go up.

Ken S

I have a feeling an Eco-4 making 250-300 hp would not be very affordable.. i wouldn't be surprised if it cost more than a LS1.

I think the ultimate next gen f-bod would be just a hair smaller if at all than the 4the gens, weigh 3000 lbs, and have a bulletproof well engineered IRS and IFS. Options would be beefier brakes and vents, accusump, and various coolers. Engine would be the bread and butter LS1. The kicker would be an "offroad" 7.0L C5R kit from the GM Performance division thats has the undocumented feature for passing emissions rollers, OBD testing, and visual check. If they did that, I could overlook the fact that perhaps some other cars maybe slightly faster in a straighline.. as long as the turning ability is way above average, and the cheater kit exists..


How about a 2800 lb LS1 powered mid engine RWD roadster? If they could keep the costs down(at the msot $30k), that would sell lke hotcakes.. would there be any competition?

ithacamike

How then does one explain the incredible insurance rates for Vette owners? They are not a young group, but insurance is very high.

ithacamike

Both cars you describe, Ken, make my mouth water, especially that mid-engined RWD baby!

DamianLT1

Bring back the 3.8L turbo engine. Slap that baby on a roadster

ReznorZ28

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they are more prone to theft and vadalism... ???



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My 2 Babies:
94 black Z28-5.7 k&n cold air induction, performance MAF,air foil & flowmaster exhast. new pics w/ SS hood & spoiler. Custom hvac&light covers and custom storage bin covers for sale
94 Z28 pics
86 laser red IrocZ - k&n air filters,full msd setup, flowmasters, modifed MAS & air foil,92 hood, Ground Effects & spoiler
86 Z28

ithacamike

Give me <3000 lbs., 300 horses, 300 torque, front or mid-engined RWD, 6-speeds, big brakes, Bilstin suspension, convertible or t-tops, easy on the electronics/chips, for less than $30K!!!!!

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Owner, 2002 SLP Forumula Firehawk #738. Red, MN-6/Hurst, t-tops, chrome wheels, Magnaflow exhaust, SLP y-pipe.

Former Owner, 1996 Pontiac Formula WS6, t-tops.

gtjeff

GM could meet this price range on this type of car. With all this talk of new gm performance, this is one I would like to see them deliver on.

Chris 96 WS6

Vette insurance is higher in part because the all-fiberglass body is more expensive to repair compared to our cars.

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Owner, Nashville Speed & Performance

1996 Trans Am WS6

Ken S

whats our car made out of then? Its it the same stuff, except for the hood and rear fenders?

I managed to back out and clip off my passanger mirror once.. it cracked the door too.. The shop charged $900 to replace the mirror and mounting plate, and mend the small crack in the door and do the paint.. NOw I always quadruple check when I pull in/out garage bays.

Darth Xed

No... Vettes' and 4th Gen F-Body fenders and doors are different material.

Vette body panels are hard and rigid, F-Body panels are flexible.

guionM

The $48,000 price tag. When a claim is made for repairs to a car that expensive, it cost more to repair.

jrp4uc

With all of the brands GM has at its disposal, there is no reason they shouldn't have all of the bases covered. It's not like the convertible/roadster boom just snuck up on them; the Miata's sales have been brisk for years. The Mustang has continued to sell, why not prepare something to counter it? The import hatchbacks have been a craze for some time, do something to get in on it. They've finally jumped in with the CTS, but there is still more work to be done in sedans. I've got more news, AWD performance cars are going to be another sorely overlooked niche.

Car sales have been lagging, why not look to some different solutions--FWD cookie cutter cars wasn't it. It's no wonder myself and others have sampled other brands and liked the results. GM needs to realize there is more than one flavor out there, and these flavors sell.

Name the GM response to...

Coupes:
RSX type-S, Tiburon GT, Celica GTS, Mustang GT, 350Z, G35
(A: Monte Carlo SS, Cavalier LS Sport, Grand Am GT)

Roadsters:
Miata, MR2, S2000
(A: null)

Hatchbacks:
GTI, Civic Si, SVT Focus
(A: Vibe GT?)

Sedans:
Impreza WRX, G35, Lancer Evolution8, Marauder, Charger
(A: Grand Prix GTP, CTS)

I look at that list and vote against the GM alternative each time (if there is one). They need to take a serious look at the competition and figure out what they're doing wrong if the care at all about anything beyond truck sales. Brands like Saturn and Buick are just screaming for something sporty, and its a crime to neglect the tradition in brands like Pontiac and Chevy. They have a whole generation of buyers wondering why GM makes nothing but lame cars.