Decromin

The current Camaro or Corvette don't look anything like their originals - why aren't you complaining about them?

Sixer-Bird

The first muscle car I ever rode in (besides the Vettes my dad would get through his work) was my grandfather's 1967 GTO H.O. My first love is the Corvette, but the GTO is right behind it along with the F-bodies. I was talking with my grandfather this past weekend about the new GTO. He was really impressed by the Holden's looks and specs. It amazes me that people could be so mad that GM brings back a legendary car done right. Two doors, rear wheel drive, push rod V8 power, full size back seat, along with handsome good looks that aren't over the top is what the GTO is all about. The GTOs from 64-67 were very cleanly styled (re: not ostentatious as some of the current Pontiacs have come off.) just as the new appears to be

This is 2002. Cars are made differently. The fact that this GTO is made in Oz is no different than the way the f-bodies have been made in Canada the past 10 years. Things change. Retro styling was just a fad. A fad that has gotten very old very fast. Once the novelty wears off, a retro car has nothing. Keep in mind that we have yet to see a production version of this car. I'm betting that even just a sketch doesn't due it justice.

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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

Darth Xed

I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the GTO not being retro... I am all for a forward thinking design...

My problem with GTO's styling is not that it lacks retro styling, but because it is a virtual clone of a car currently in their lineup.... The current Grand Prix coupe.

I mean... it looks exactly like a Grand Prix...


[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 24, 2002).]

guionM

In other words, we should ignore the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats, and the fact that the only other 4 seater that will run with it for under 40 grand needs a supercharger to do it, apparently by one's view of it being BS, simply because it isn't retro enough??

MunchE

I like the new GTO, it's cleaner than the GP and not as oddly proportioned. Doesn't look oddly long or have wierd lines on the sides.

Smooth, clean, nice looking car.

Looks like GOATCRAZY managed to post his "I HATE IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT MADE IN THE US" before anyone else got here.

Anyways, that tagline is pretty simple and good, although kind of cliche.

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Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited June 24, 2002).]

HuJass

Proud Pony,
By your reasoning, if GM keeps giving us what we praise them for building (that is your thinking, isn't it), then soon, GM will be building nothing but mid-size, 2-door, RWD, V-8 coupes. And that's a bad thing because...?

IZ28

Wow, some people just don't get it. You guys wanna say good things about the Grand GTO and keep getting things that look like this from GM while the other companies are getting cool looking cars, fine. Not me and any other entusuaists, especially a GM 1. We have been dealing with ****** stying for a while now. I bet the Charger has some cues and doesn't look like all of their other cars. I showed that picture to a few people and lets just say they weren't impressed AT ALL.

"The current Camaro or Corvette don't look anything like their originals - why aren't you complaining about them?"

Did you read my previous post??



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 25, 2002).]

Decromin

How many retro styled cars have been a sucess after the initial fuss has died down? This car needs to stand on it's own merit - not hang off the shirt tails of it's predecessor.

Oh, and you didn't explain the Vette ...

IZ28

And I do not want the car to be that. Look at some concepts like !!TED!!'s. As for the Corvette, a cue or 2 from those cars back then would be cool. You do not have to make a car look entirely like a modern version of a car from way back, but some things are nice.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

ProudPony

You guys dissapointed me on this one. I gave you more credit than to put up responses like this. How many times do I have to type this in...
PLEASE READ WHAT IS THERE BEFORE POSTING.


I have not seen IZ28, JasonK94Z, GOATCRAZY, or myself write anything negative about the car's performance or the intrinsic "car" itself - our issues are with the styling based on it being called a GTO. What I'm trying to say is, "if you are going to link this new car to the old GTO in performance by name, then do it in styling cues too."

Or how's this, "If it doesn't look like a GTO, why call it one? Just because it can "perform" at a high level? Because it has a great suspension? If "good performance" is all you need to wear a GTO badge, then Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, Cudas, Challengers, Torinos, and every other car that ever had performance characteristics should have been called GTO's too."

Now, the argument that you guys (jrp4uc, Decromin, Sixer-Bird, guionM, and a few others) are using to defend the car is basically - "screw the name and/or styling, look at the performance package and interior". So, by the same argument, if I were to put the same drivetrain and interior into an AMC Pacer body, and stick GTO badges on the side of it, you guys would still love it and want to buy one, right? After all - it has , and I quote, "the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats", etc. Screw the looks, it's a GTO and it'll rock! (I know this is a lame example, but it makes my point.)

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

ProudPony

50% good point, 50% shoot own foot.
The Vette is "different car/different market" and is actually doing OK in sales. But if you will recall, there were quite a few complaints about the "new Z06" and the 50th anniversary "stripe kit". Several threads were filled with critisism.

As for the Camaro, well... averaging 40K units/year for the last gen doesn't exactly say everyone was pleased with it. I have read many "suggestions" on this site about how it could be restyled with less overhang, better visibilty, no whale's @$$, etc. by true blue Bowtie Boys that proudly own them.

By the way, NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE A RETRO THEME. I/We didn't ASK for GM to "revive" the GTO for us. Ford was asked to put some original cues back into the Mustang for '94 models though, and I think it has helped the car's image and recongition factors tremendously, but that's JMO.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger on this one.

ProudPony

Sixer-Bird,
You seem to be ignoring the fact that you too have an identification problem with this car. Look above in bold. Which is it... a GTO? or a Holden? maybe just a GM "product"? or is it a Monero? or maybe just a modded Grand Prix on 'roids with a body kit?

I, like you and your grandfather, am impressed with the Holden Monero. I really like the car. But call it what it was designed to be and produced as... a Holden Monero for Pete's sake! It is NOT a GTO, based on the GTO that your Grandfather owned and you rode in as a kid. The impression that GTO gave you as a kid must have been a great one, as you still recall it today - that mystique is why the car is legendary my friend. Nobody says you can't like it, but this new car shares nothing (design-wise) with the old GTO. (and don't you guys start with the "4 seats" and "V8 sleeper" thing because there is a basket full of 4-seater V8's out there - that's a lame debate.)

HuJass, I see your point. I can't honestly say it's a totally bad thing that we all praise GM for "giving" us a RWD V8 coupe at this time. But in the same context, how would you shop if you went to the GM dealer only to find the lot full of nothing but RWD V8 coupes - that were all identical in shape and design (Grand Prix/Grand Am/GTO style) - but each one had a different name. Let's see, the red ones will be the GTOs, the blue ones will be called Impalas, the white ones will be called Monte Carlos, the pink ones will be Bel-Aires, the yellow ones will be Novas, the grey ones will be Malibus, the black ones will be Firebirds, the orange ones will be Camaros, etc. etc. See my point? The cookie-cutter at it's finest... production costs are as low as possible, everybody gets a sporty car that looks great (even if very similar), and we all discern ourselves solely by the model name GM puts on the fender. Hot-chick says to you in parking lot,"Oh I just love your car! Is it a GTO, Camaro, or Bel-Aire?" You should be able to recognize a car by it's distinct characteristics - visually. With the GTO proposal, it ain't happening.

Again, I'm not down on the performance aspect of what has been done with this Monero(GTO-not). It's awesome. I am down on GM's continuing practice of degrading legendary model names. If they can't give the GTO the time and money to do a new performance car with some retro cues on it - leave the name to rest in peace.

OK - flamesuit still not leaking, bring it on if you feel you gotta. But guys, please, read what we are trying to say here in full, not in bits and pieces. Don't let your extreme desire for an F-body replacement "RWD V8 coupe", turn into a willingness to accept anything GM throws at you with passion. You may be setting a trend that you will later regret.
IMHO, either do a job right, or don't do it at all.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

jrp4uc

No, you're taking our comments out of context. It is not a GTO soley for those reasons. It's humble styling and attitude are nothing but characteristic of the orignal GTOs--and 350hp, 6spd, rwd, and irs back up that image. Given what they have to work with, (a front and rear bumper), I am satisfied with how this was executed. I can't say I care for any of the renditions posted by everyone else anymore. Most look out of place, as would any other car from 2002 with a '68 bumper and hood attached. It just doesn't look right. You can't add scoops and vents for the sake of having them if they don't fit the lines of the car. Just the same, how much '67 Z28 do you see in the '02?

If I were to put the same spin on your comments as you put on mine, any car with a Ram Air hood is a GTO. I've got a WRX with a hood scoop--is it more "GTO" than what GM is pushing? What sense does that make? Especially in light of the recently defunct, over-the-top Trans Am--GM is not going to go overboard just for the sake of doing it if they think their target audience isn't looking for that. It would be a lot easier to tastefullyadd that stuff on later (see Corvette Z06) than try and peel it off to make the car more mature after being poorly received.

I don't think Vipers were being mistaken for Dodge Avengers just because their front ends were similar. People have posted profile pics of the HSV Monaro; where do you see a Grand Prix? We all want the best GTO possible. I really consider myself a potential buyer (post-hysteria and markups). Given how out of character this entire venture is for GM, I don't think we could have anticipated anything edgy. That's not an excuse. Infact, it could be a compliment considering how retro-crazy other manufactures appear to be.

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-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

ProudPony

Where have you seen me write that the performance was not good? Likewise, where have I written that the styling is not nice? The implication is solely in the naming of this car. Some defense of (using) the name has been based on performance alone or "shared styling with brand siblings of the era", and I don't give those issues any merits on their own. That was my debate.

Well, in fact that may be the case. Let's put the two hoods (a WRX and the GTO/Monaro) in an empty room and let 100 general populus walk through and choose which hood implies "GTO" to them. I'll wager you the WRX hood will win. Granted, the car as a whole won't compare. But the point being that I think people in general will associate a scooped hood with a GTO more often than not. The other big difference is that nobody on the street thinks of a 30-year-old musclecar when you say "Subaru WRX".

Why the association thing? The GTO has been dead for 30 years man! Do you honestly think GM can use the name GTO without expecting you to associate that name to the legendary performer of yesteryear? Please, that's exactly what they want you to do! But that's where the retro and styling cues issues come into play. Since GM decided to use past impressions of a GTO to conjure up performance in my head and get me to their showroom, they have also allowed me to use my concept of what the GTO was. Now if my image of a GTO has a ram air hood, unique wheels, unique grill, etc. then what makes it wrong for me to expect to see those features on a car called a GTO - whether it was made 30 years ago or tomorrow?

If it's a totally new car, give it a totally new name, then you haven't risked this alienation of loyal GTO followers, or people who expect a GTO to have old GTO features. If it's an old car that has continuously evolved - that's cool. If it's a car named after a historic model, then give it some physical association with that model at least. But why even use a name with heritage on something totally unassociated with the original? It's a cheap shot by GM to sell cars based on the laurels of a past model. IMHO, it's a wasted bullet too, because I think the Monaro would still sell all 20K units if it wore the Monaro badges and had no body alterations at all. So here's just another name (GTO) pulled out of history and thrown around carelessly again by the good ol' General in an effort to ensure sales.

[edit]I mean this post in good spirits, no flames intended. Hope this doesn't read like I'm **** about the GTO. I just want you guys to be careful with your praise - Camaro's may be next in the "give that car a name" game.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

Sixer-Bird

Proud Pony,

The picture that was in the newspaper that I was showing my grandfather was of the actual Holden Monaro, not the Pontiac picture. This is as close to a modern day GTO as anyone could come. The original GTOs were based off Tempests and Le Mans. They had different badges as people have stated in other threads. I guess that some people will never be pleased.

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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash