kizz

I'm glad that so many of your guys have already made up your minds about disliking this car as a GTO and written it in stone, simply from one tiny 3/4 angle sketch showing an unsatisfactory front grill. That's really amusing. For the rest of us, it just means higher availability. And don't forget the 50/50/75 rule: many of you critics will be buying it as an '05 after finding that there are no 04's left.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

HuJass

I just want to go on record as saying that I don't think the new GTO looks like a GP. It resembles a GP in the fascia, but that's where the similarities end. The rest of the car is all different. And the grilles don't appear to be GP grilles. The GP's are more horizontal and recessed. That gray section on the lower nose is not there. The fog lights are different. I think that the similarities were intentional. All the manufacturers do this. They try to make their models look like a family, so that they're easily recognizable as a particular brand. Look how similar the 71-72 GTOs were to the 70-73 Firebirds. No one got upset then.
And I keep hearing about cues. Take a look at my other thread about trying to figure out which old GTO the new one looks like. There you will read about how the new GTO has twin split grilles above the bumper, like the '70 did. It has the arrowhead between the grilles, like the '70. It has a mask in the composite lights that represent separate twin headlights on each side, like the '70. It has the slot below the bumper, like the '70. And it has lights flanking either side of the slot, like the '70 did. Are these not cues?
I said it before and I'll say it again here. I think the problem is that Pontiac raped the GTO themes for the last 2 generations of the GP. So now when people see those themes on a car, they immediately think GP.
And another thing. When the new GP comes out in 2004, it won't look anything like the current GP. Just look at the show car, the GP G-force. The new GTO doesn't look like that car. That car is butt-ugly.
And even JIm Wangers himself (the father of GTO advertising) said that the new GTO "should have a "kissin'-cousin" look to some of the existing Pontiacs...". It's called brand recognition.

ProudPony

kizz,
I hope you are right and I am wrong, for the sake of the GTO name and for GM performance hopes as a whole. But if I'm right and you are wrong, you will have spent $35/40k for a car that could have a reputation and resale issue like the Malibu, Nova, Impala, and others in a few years. GRANTED, this car is far more refined and performs far better than those others, but my implication is that the new GTO just isn't what the old name suggested to many of us, so the reputation and resale diminishes quickly. So if it's what you want - buy it. I won't.

Likewise, there will always be people who are just "car buyers". They could care less about history, heritage, or model evolution - a car is a car. There are even some posting in this forum. If they like what they see, regardless of what it is or how it got there, they'll buy it. I'll bet that more than half of the affluent people who buy these 20K cars couldn't point out a '71 GTO in a picture book if you got them to the right page. Lucky for GM and Holden, huh? Remember the phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?

My point... some people will buy anything, but some have higher standards or a more stringent set of criteria for particular models. I am one of the latter. I won't support GM's monetarily-motivated slandering of another legendary model name. Sorry if my views offend anyone, but thankfully it's a free country!

IZ28

OK then here is the line:

GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars. LOL.

kizz

PP,

I'm just saying it's something to think about to give it a chance, give it the benefit of the doubt, until you can set your own eyes on a driveable car, not some tiny prototype sketch. Wait till you can sit in it and get a feel for it. Wait till you *hear* it idling, see it, test drive it. You probably know that most subtleties about a car never come across till you're in it, experiencing it first hand. If you've already ruled out the only foreseeable Pontiac RWD V8 coupe available, Then I guess there are plenty of cheerful Sunfires to choose from. We're forgetting it's a stopgap too.

IZ28

You guys will settle for whatever.

HuJass

Yeah, I guess we will settle for whatever. I like settling for a 350 HP V-8, RWD, manual, coupe. Just call me a settler.

Ude-lose

There is no denying the platform, that america GM swayed away from in the 80s/90s is favour of the FWD platforms it was trying to push...

It has proven itself time and time again, on the international stage, with record sales figures, it has left Ford Australia with two black eyes and scratching their heads, and theatens to spread like an epidemic throughtout the world....

It is my friends none other that the V-Car GM2800 platform, and has been developed by australia into so much more than its humble beginings as the opel omega/catera, they are now developing the 4WD version + Ls1 , now thats gonna be something else...

The GTO is just the begining ,,, be prepared as GM realizes what this car is and becomes at least a big chunk of GM platforms including the 4-door and Ute , maybe even the return of the caprice long wheelbase.

WERM

Retro styling is so.....yesterday.

ProudPony

HuJass,
I don't really mean to flame you on this, but while you "settle" into your "gift" from the General, I'm gonna be struggling to decide how to spend my $ on V8 RWD's - Mach1, Cobra, Marauder, T-bird, Forty-Nine, or maybe go tuner with a Saleen, Roush, Steeda, or Kenny Brown. Nevermind the Lightning, SVT Focus, GT-40 and such because they don't "fit" for various reasons.

I didn't settle 10-15 years ago on Ford's Muskrat, like I'm not settling on this Holden now. By taking a ride on this kind of stuff, you're only killing yourselves. See where I'm coming from here?

ProudPony

kizz, I can understand your point about giving them a chance. The problem with that is that if you don't like it after it gets here in production form - it's too late to fix anything then. All the tooling is done, the pipes are full of fabbed parts that will not be scrapped, and the line is running and staffed. The result will then be a flop that will likely be discontinued, not give another bazillion dollars to "try it again".

It is easier to be PROACTIVE than REACTIVE towards problems, especially in the car market. We need to blast GM with our feelings ASAP for them to still have time/money to react with before production. (Of course that assumes that they want our input and would actually listen to what we might have to say - another issue.)

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

GN1270

Go look at a damn monero pic from the side. If you think thats a grand prix, i'm glad your not desighning any cars.you knew it would be a monero, you knew they were going to put a new pontiac grille, hood and rear on it, so why are you so suprised. you will all be eating your words when you see one in person. man, i woulda been happy with an RWD LS1 GP. How much ya think that woulda retailed for??? Now compare interiors, build quality, cassis, etc.... Damn,can't please everyone!!!

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87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

HuJass

Not taken as a flame.
Your a Ford guy. Maybe you guys don't understand GM. Every once in a great while, GM gives us a great car (let's not concern ourselves with names) and then suddenly gets rid of the car for whatever reasons. By GM's line of reasoning, if a car doesn't sell, they'll cancel it. Or they change the car to FWD V-6 crap.
And, GM doesn't react to criticism (whether good or bad) very well. They are too big. GM isn't a company who listens to what customers want and then gives them what they want. Never was their style.
Let's say that the majority of people expressed dissatisfaction with the new GTO (which we know the reverse is true), GM wouldn't go back and fix the car. They'd scrap the plan. Or bring it back as a FWD POS. GM doesn't work like Ford. So don't compare them to Ford.

And, quite frankly, this GTO is just the car I've been waiting for GM to build since they canceled the RWD G-bodies in 1988 (yes, '88. The RWD Cutlass Supreme lived on for that year as the Cutlass Supreme Classic).

AND, isn't the Maurauder just a lowered, black Grand Marquis with different wheels and grille and a little more power? Ya know there was a Mercury Maurauder built in the '60s. I don't see any cues or styling to suggest the '60s car. I think the old car was a 2 door while the new one is a 4 door.
By your own ideals, you should be jumping up and down and spitting nails right now. How dare they ruin the Maurauder name.

And why are you complaining about GM? You seem to be a dyed-in-the-wool Ford guy. You most likely would never buy a GM anyways. So don't worry about GM. Leave that up to us. We're the loyal GM fans.

kizz

Once a muskrat, always a muskrat. Half the cars you mentioned are souped up Muskrats. Have fun "settling" for 2nd best.

------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

ProudPony

Well, I agree with you 100% here. All I can add is that for size, Ford is not exactly a back-yard shop making go-carts. Back in the 80's they weren't too good at listening to the buyers either. But things CAN change, and did in Ford's case. If enough people get heard by GM and the money flow is controlled right (i.e. selective purchases, etc.), I promise GM can change too.


That's great, and I'm glad the car is here for you at this point, really. But be honest w/me, wouldn't you still love this car if it were called a Pontiac Monaro?[edit]


Yes, the Marauder was made from the mid- to late-60's, and it is based on the Crown-Vic/Marquis platform. BUT, there ARE cues from the original in this new one. The upholstery has the old head of the "Mercury Messenger " in it, the shifter is in the floor/retro, the guages are retro (in center of console, too). Check this article... Mercury revives classic logo for new Marauder halo car. (This is really not the place to go into details about that car - but I understand what you were trying to say. It's cool.)

Here's the part that hits a nerve. You are right, again. I am a true-blue-Ford-guy, no doubt. But I am also a musclecar lover. That includes Camaros, Firebirds, GTO's, and anything else that I can categorize as an American Musclecar - I don't car who makes it.

I started coming to this site (to read only) to get info on weaknesses of the LT1/LS1 stuff I am competing against. But I found that there are some awesome guys with some real passion about cars posting in this forum that had class enough to complement the Mustang for what it has done right. I have been against 86-ing the F-bods since I first heard about it, and there were some topics in this forum that were on that subject.

I finally decided to register and offer whatever help/advise I could as an "outsider". You see, while I love the cars and don't want to see them go away, I am not "blinded" by brand loyalty either, so I try to offer honest, heart-felt posts about things that I feel could help. Look around this entire forum - you won't find my posts anywhere but here in 5th gen - I don't come here to slam, I don't come here to lounge, I don't come here to flame, and I don't come here to gloat. I come here to "help". In my 15 years as a Mustang Club of America member, I have been through a lot with our car's evolution, and I am offering my experiences/advise to you all here in this crisis for the F-body.

SO - if you don't want my input or help getting an awesome Camaro back, no problem - you won't get it. But all the other enthusiasts who DO want support for an awesome Camaro's return will get it from me. After all, it's a free world, right? BTW - would you have nads-e-nuf to go post technical stuff like this on a Ford/Mustang board? Beleive me, I know this is not my home turf!
(I own two Maytags - don't that count for owning GM products? )

Sorry to all for the long sermon, but he asked!!


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]