If 4th gen production continued....would anyone buy?
07-15-2002 | 09:14 PM
#76
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Inwo:
That's probably what YOU are doing so what's your point?</font>
That's probably what YOU are doing so what's your point?</font>
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Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
07-15-2002 | 09:46 PM
#77
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jim85IROC:
It's a double-sided coin. 4th genners think their car is the holy grail of automotive ownership and automatically dismiss thirdgens as junk. Every 4th genner thinks that every thirdgen has a 150hp LG4 and skinny 15" tires with small sway bars and soft springs. I'll admit that the 4th gen is superior in most regards. More power, better transmissions, somewhat stiffer chassis. But the one (and basically ONLY one) thing that the thirdgen does better than the 4th gen is handle. Granted it's at a substantial sacrifice in ride quality, but a stock WS6 or IROC will outhandle a stock SS or WS6 4th gen, and will also respond better to suspension modifications. It's really silly to try and argue otherwise. Hang out at an SCCA or local track event if you live near a roadcourse and pay attention to whose cars go through the corners better.
Plus... you're taking stats from 2 totally different sources. You get your camaro stats from Road & Track, and your 4th gen info from some guy named Vinny. At least try to get info from the SAME magazine. Not that even the same magazine's numbers can make much of a comparison. But just to prove that no 2 magazines are the same, here's some thirdgen stuff to chew on:
Motor Trend (July 1990)
Lateral acceleration,0.90g
Hot Rod, January 1990:
Skidpad- .87g
Somewhere at home I've got an original road test of the 85 IROC. I believe it's the October issue of Car & Driver, but I could be mistaking. Anyway... they give a .90 test number to the skidpad too.
Originally posted by Darth Xed:
By no means do I take a magazine artcile to be law, but it makes a point.
Two objective (in theory) sources putting the 2 cars about equal.
Man, I really like 3rd gens and all, but the whole inflated view of 3rd gen capabilities is just astounding.
</font>
By no means do I take a magazine artcile to be law, but it makes a point.
Two objective (in theory) sources putting the 2 cars about equal.
Man, I really like 3rd gens and all, but the whole inflated view of 3rd gen capabilities is just astounding.
</font>
Plus... you're taking stats from 2 totally different sources. You get your camaro stats from Road & Track, and your 4th gen info from some guy named Vinny. At least try to get info from the SAME magazine. Not that even the same magazine's numbers can make much of a comparison. But just to prove that no 2 magazines are the same, here's some thirdgen stuff to chew on:
Motor Trend (July 1990)
Lateral acceleration,0.90g
Hot Rod, January 1990:
Skidpad- .87g
Somewhere at home I've got an original road test of the 85 IROC. I believe it's the October issue of Car & Driver, but I could be mistaking. Anyway... they give a .90 test number to the skidpad too.
The point of order, so to speak, was which car was the "Best overall car" between the two... and even if I just drop the whole handling issue, which I still feel I have enough information to say at worst it is a draw, but even if I give handling to the 3rd gens, you said it yourself, the 4th gen wins every other performance catagory out there.
So, then that leaves you with sales and looks.
Throw looks out the window, because it is totally subjective. That leaves sales.
If sales is a factor in what the best overall car is, then we all should be bowing down to the mighty Toyota Camry...
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 15, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 15, 2002).]
07-15-2002 | 09:59 PM
#78
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
By the way, over the 4th of July weekend I attended Camaro Superfest in Ann Arbor, MI, annually the single largest all-Camaro event in the nation. This year they had a record-breaking 223 Camaros pre-register, and more showed up late. It was a lot of fun. I got a year-by-year breakdown of the cars that participated. Remember, no one likes 4th Gen Camaros. 
1st Gen - 45 cars
2nd Gen - 45 (pretty surprising to me, but nice to see!)
3rd Gen - 36
4th Gen - 96
www.camarosuperfest.com/reghistory.shtml
------------------
Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
1st Gen - 45 cars
2nd Gen - 45 (pretty surprising to me, but nice to see!)
3rd Gen - 36
4th Gen - 96
www.camarosuperfest.com/reghistory.shtml
------------------
Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
07-15-2002 | 10:34 PM
#79
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 564
From: Fletcher, NC, US
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
1st Gen - 45 cars
2nd Gen - 45 (pretty surprising to me, but nice to see!)
3rd Gen - 36
4th Gen - 96</font>
1st Gen - 45 cars
2nd Gen - 45 (pretty surprising to me, but nice to see!)
3rd Gen - 36
4th Gen - 96</font>
You're pointing out the obvious like it's supposed to be some sort of revelation. Let's wait another 20 years and see how many crack-whale 4th gens for sale are actually selling, by which time the 3rd gen value will have joined the ranks of the 1st and 2nd gen. Print this out and keep it in a time capsule for 20 years and let's see what happens.
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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg
07-15-2002 | 11:36 PM
#80
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
Let's wait another 20 years and see how many crack-whale 4th gens for sale are actually selling, by which time the 3rd gen value will have joined the ranks of the 1st and 2nd gen. Print this out and keep it in a time capsule for 20 years and let's see what happens.
</font>
Let's wait another 20 years and see how many crack-whale 4th gens for sale are actually selling, by which time the 3rd gen value will have joined the ranks of the 1st and 2nd gen. Print this out and keep it in a time capsule for 20 years and let's see what happens.
</font>
07-16-2002 | 12:13 AM
#81
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Yup, same here. When I say every1 doesn't like them I mean most people. The Third was 1 of the best looking cars of all time. And I said IMO (note the IMO ) it is the best looking car ever. **** some of you are slow.
"Yes, I have actually had nothing better to do today then vote over 50 times for the 4th Gen."
It wouldn't surprise me.
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 16, 2002).]
) it is the best looking car ever. **** some of you are slow."Yes, I have actually had nothing better to do today then vote over 50 times for the 4th Gen."
It wouldn't surprise me.
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 16, 2002).]
07-16-2002 | 01:17 AM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,122
From: Houston
We'll after reading this post for the last few day I'm starting to think GM shouldn’t waste any money in developing a 5th gen. I mean, the best car they EVER produced was the 3rd gen. They should just say “forget the 5th gen, lets just build more 3rd gens!” I mean it is what EVERYBODY wants, right?
ugh.....we need to close this topic...this is such a pointless fight...no car is perfect.
------------------
Stefan
1995 3.4L Camaro, Mystic Metallic Green, M5, 3.23’s, T-tops, every option except the V8
Ignore the future mods on my site, my plans have changed.
See my car here:
http://members.tripod.com/stars101010/
Best time: 10.7 @ 63mph in the 1/8 mile
ugh.....we need to close this topic...this is such a pointless fight...no car is perfect.
------------------
Stefan
1995 3.4L Camaro, Mystic Metallic Green, M5, 3.23’s, T-tops, every option except the V8
Ignore the future mods on my site, my plans have changed.
See my car here:
http://members.tripod.com/stars101010/
Best time: 10.7 @ 63mph in the 1/8 mile
07-16-2002 | 01:37 AM
#83
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
That would be cool. If they did build a car with Third Gen looks I bet it would sell like crazy!!
I agree though, this has gone on long enough. And all cars, new or not, have their own advantages and disadvantages.
If they did build a car with Third Gen looks I bet it would sell like crazy!!I agree though, this has gone on long enough. And all cars, new or not, have their own advantages and disadvantages.
07-16-2002 | 06:28 AM
#84
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 37
weird......the 305ho in my car from 1984 went 14.6@95mph too...thats pretty funny seeing a 305 get the same time as a lt1....
lets see....my t top seals hardly leak
my "stock" alternator went last year
my stock coil went because of the bad alternator or it would still be going strong
my distributer didn't take a crap at 30k
i can see and work on my whole motor
for being old it has no rust and is solid as a brick and i have never had any trouble playing with 4th gens
lets see....my t top seals hardly leak
my "stock" alternator went last year
my stock coil went because of the bad alternator or it would still be going strong
my distributer didn't take a crap at 30k
i can see and work on my whole motor
for being old it has no rust and is solid as a brick and i have never had any trouble playing with 4th gens
07-16-2002 | 06:42 AM
#85
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Yup. I definetly see what you're saying, my car is very much the same and still has pretty much stock everything on it and the 700R4 and rear axle still don't give any BS. Alot of Thirds I see are like that. BTW, LT1s run more around low 14's. I thought I'd tell you nicely before they attack you.
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 16, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 16, 2002).]
07-16-2002 | 07:32 AM
#86
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Ugh... I'm gonna just go crawl into a cave somewhere and make tools out of rocks... obviously, a hammer made from a rock is the best ever...
I don't think many (I can think of one person) of the people "On the 4th gen side" have said that third gens suck. Quite the opposite, most of us have declared out love for the car, yet are aware enough to realize that the 4th gen outperforms the 3rd gen in most, if not all, catagories.
There just seems to be a lot of close-minded, immature viewing coming from the "3rd gen side"... it's pretty much, with a few exceptions such as Jim, that everyone just says "3rd gen rule! 4th gens suck! Rock on!"
That is just silly.
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 16, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 16, 2002).]
I don't think many (I can think of one person) of the people "On the 4th gen side" have said that third gens suck. Quite the opposite, most of us have declared out love for the car, yet are aware enough to realize that the 4th gen outperforms the 3rd gen in most, if not all, catagories.
There just seems to be a lot of close-minded, immature viewing coming from the "3rd gen side"... it's pretty much, with a few exceptions such as Jim, that everyone just says "3rd gen rule! 4th gens suck! Rock on!"
That is just silly.[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 16, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 16, 2002).]
07-16-2002 | 08:47 AM
#87
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10
From: Alexandria, VA, USA
I think some of the like/dislike for any car has to do with the individual car itself. I had an '83 with the 305, 4bbl. I absolutely LOVED that car for looks and handling. It was quick and nimble, fun on the open road as well as "user friendly" for my daily commute. However, I was not as lucky as some of the posters here so far as mechanical reliability ... the car was plagued with oil leaks and front end problems, had 3 alternators, 2 power steering pumps, all well before time and mileage would have warranted. I sold the car to buy a '94Z. Honestly, I don't enjoy driving the car as much as the '83. It's great on the open road, but I find it bulky for city driving. But, it's hands-down mechanically superior. Again, a lot of folks have had problems with their 4th gens. that I haven't seen. So far as looks, I think a well-kept 3d gen. wins. The 4th gen. is agressive and "out there." But "out there" in many things doesn't always stand the test of time. But ... who knows?
07-16-2002 | 09:09 AM
#88
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 403
From: Wish I knew..
There just seems to be a lot of close-minded, immature viewing coming from the "3rd gen side"... it's pretty much, with a few exceptions such as Jim, that everyone just says "3rd gen rule! 4th gens suck! Rock on!" That is just silly.
Oh yes,only from the 3rdgen side.Dude!The only reason 4thgenners get the grief from 3rdgenners is because everytime we turn around and see a thread about a third gen and someone with a 4thgen is bashing it.I never see a 3rdgenner starting a new thread bashing a 4th until he gets provoked.So we start with the 4thgens' faults and maybe embellish them a bit.It gets old after awhile and now the bs wore so thin that we 3rdgenners are having enough of it.Why do the administrators even allow the 3rdgen and even 2ndgen bashing is beyond me.Ya know,I thought that this was a Camaro enthusiast site/forum and not for a particular generation,guess not.
Oh yes,only from the 3rdgen side
.Dude!The only reason 4thgenners get the grief from 3rdgenners is because everytime we turn around and see a thread about a third gen and someone with a 4thgen is bashing it.I never see a 3rdgenner starting a new thread bashing a 4th until he gets provoked.So we start with the 4thgens' faults and maybe embellish them a bit.It gets old after awhile and now the bs wore so thin that we 3rdgenners are having enough of it.Why do the administrators even allow the 3rdgen and even 2ndgen bashing is beyond me.Ya know,I thought that this was a Camaro enthusiast site/forum and not for a particular generation,guess not.
07-16-2002 | 09:12 AM
#89
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 91Zman:
There just seems to be a lot of close-minded, immature viewing coming from the "3rd gen side"... it's pretty much, with a few exceptions such as Jim, that everyone just says "3rd gen rule! 4th gens suck! Rock on!" That is just silly.
Oh yes,only from the 3rdgen side.Dude!The only reason 4thgenners get the grief from 3rdgenners is because everytime we turn around and see a thread about a third gen and someone with a 4thgen is bashing it.I never see a 3rdgenner starting a new thread bashing a 4th until he gets provoked.So we start with the 4thgens' faults and maybe embellish them a bit.It gets old after awhile and now the bs wore so thin that we 3rdgenners are having enough of it.Why do the administrators even allow the 3rdgen and even 2ndgen bashing is beyond me.Ya know,I thought that this was a Camaro enthusiast site/forum and not for a particular generation,guess not.</font>
There just seems to be a lot of close-minded, immature viewing coming from the "3rd gen side"... it's pretty much, with a few exceptions such as Jim, that everyone just says "3rd gen rule! 4th gens suck! Rock on!" That is just silly.
Oh yes,only from the 3rdgen side
.Dude!The only reason 4thgenners get the grief from 3rdgenners is because everytime we turn around and see a thread about a third gen and someone with a 4thgen is bashing it.I never see a 3rdgenner starting a new thread bashing a 4th until he gets provoked.So we start with the 4thgens' faults and maybe embellish them a bit.It gets old after awhile and now the bs wore so thin that we 3rdgenners are having enough of it.Why do the administrators even allow the 3rdgen and even 2ndgen bashing is beyond me.Ya know,I thought that this was a Camaro enthusiast site/forum and not for a particular generation,guess not.</font>
07-16-2002 | 09:24 AM
#90
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I love the power of an LS1 (or even an LT1)....but I think I'd buy a 1st thru 3rd gen before I'd buy a 4th gen.
IMO..they just don't appeal to me...sorry.
I'm not saying they belong in trailer parks (like some 4th genners have said other Camaros belong), or that they are a POS, (like some 4th genners........)or that you guys with 4th gens should stop liking them.
It's just that I, personally, find them unappealing....so I guess to answer my own question....no, I wouldn't buy one.
IMO..they just don't appeal to me...sorry.
I'm not saying they belong in trailer parks (like some 4th genners have said other Camaros belong), or that they are a POS, (like some 4th genners........)or that you guys with 4th gens should stop liking them.
It's just that I, personally, find them unappealing....so I guess to answer my own question....no, I wouldn't buy one.