Project such high sales is what got the Camaro killed this time. If they try to make a case for 120,000 cars a year they'll be shot down, laughed at, chewed up, spit out, and DEE-NIED.

 

I think that the 120,000 projection is accurate.

The fatal flaw, may be however, on the insistence that only 2 engines be available and non-differentiation (or at least not differentiated the the way we would want), of the V8 models .

 

Your numbers just go to show that the V6 models were dead as far as sales, but the LS-1s were still reasonably strong. When V8s comprise 58.9% of a muscle-car range, you have to wonder if there is any future for six-cylinders.

I think there is a poor business case for bringing out any coupe with the expectation of 200k/year+ sales. With 2005 Mustang production pegged at a maximum of 100,000 to 140,000, instead of the old capacity of 200,000, this trend is obvious. Considering that Ford has completely protected the 'Stang from internal competion, they don't seem overly optimistic.

However, the strong demand for the V8 Camaro, despite the a complete lack of promotion and the "stink" associated with the end of production, should show that a market still exists for a "sub-Corvette" model.

 

When it comes to cars, the general public can be considered a group of IDIOTS. The Camaro is a true enthusiast's car stuck in a world of bone-headed jackasses that wouldn't know a good car if they drove one for a month.

All these crack-pot morons see a worthwhile vehicle as a collection of cell-phone holders, lighted vanity mirrors, and lumbar support for their bad backs (because they've spent every weekend for the last 13 years sitting on the couch, eating Lays potato chips, watching football on TV and yelling at the players because they couldn't run fast enough to catch the ball).

The general public sports car market consists mainly of stupid High School girls who convince daddy to buy them a V6 Mustang because they managed to almost get off of academic probation. They don't want a Camaro because it isn't cute enough.

People like to buy SUV's, even though their daily commute consists of a 20 minute drive on the highway with the driver as the only person in the car. Soccer moms love SUV's, "They are big, so they have to be safe!".

The depths of some of these people's idiocy knows no bounds.

 

I agree, somewhat. Most people came-of-age in an era of dull, unexciting vehicles. They wouldn't recognize steering feel, braking response or shift quality. Moreover, most Americans never develope anything more than rudimentary driving skills.

On the other hand, I can't bash people who drive big SUVs or minivans. If I only had access to a single car, I probably would have gone that route instead of my Z28. To be reasonable, I can't drive it half the year, and even then, I can't put half of my duffle in it. A Mustang, sedan, or even a station wagon wouldn't be any better.

 

This is a great discussion.

I own two camaros currently (89 RS convertible, about to sell, and 99 SS) My roomate has a 99 Mustang GT. The reason he bought his mustang was simply price, All through high school he drooled over a trans am, when it came time to buy, he simply couldn't afford it. Another friend of ours went the same direction, 2000 GT over a 2000 Camaro. Simply because of price. I myself looked long and hard for a new SS for under 30,000 but had to buy a used one, which i am very hapy with. It was aggrivating to me that I had 30,000 dollars to spend on a new car and couldnt buy the camaro I wanted.

The mustang is also a much better mid life crisis car. Older people looking for a "sporty car" can get in and out of the mustangs higher seating position much easier. A lot of girls also drive base mustangs for this reason. I dont mean to crack on mustangs but thats the truth.

The Camaro could use a lot of improvement before the fifth generation comes out, but with proper adevertising, pricing, and engineering, the camaro could easily sell 75-100K cars. GM showed its priorities in the mid nineties and camaro sales paid.

Quick fact : 4,774,155 Camaros were sold over the 35 year life span. Thats an average yearly sale of 136,000. 1986 was the last year camaro sales were above that average.

 

The LS-1 F-bodies couldn't beat the Mustang GT on price. The Trans-Am and Camaro SS were the worst offenders in this regard. It was easy to wander on a dealer's lot and run into an expensive Ram Air or SS - something that discourages alot of buyers. People were shopping $30K+ F-bodies against $23k Mustang GTs. Unless you were wandering around an SVT dealer, you didn't see the pricey Cobra.

I think that landscape would have been different if Chevrolet had pushed the cheaper LS-1s harder. Maybe then people would have realized that a $25k Z28 could only be matched by a $32,000 Cobra.

 

I think you folks are touching on part of the issue, but I'd like to clarify it a bit:

Camaro's problem in the last generation was that it was priced out of the market it is best suited for - 20-30 year olds.

***NOTE: the following is NOT a brag-fest. I'm simply providing my financial case as an example.***

I bought my first Camaro at age 30, and my income is substantially higher than the norm for my age group. I'm not rich by any means, but if you look at average family income (family of 4), we're approaching the 90th percentile.

This should point out VERY CLEARLY that the average 22 year old college graduate simply couldn't afford a full book SS in most cases, or even a Z28.

The real killer was never the car payment - it was the insurance. At 18 years old, just out of boot camp in the Marine Corps, I could have made the payment on a Firebird Formula 350. Unfortunately, the insurance premium matched the car payment monthly. Even now, the SS is buried under 3 other cars in my insurance structuring to keep the premiums down. I haven't had a ticket or accident in 5 years either.

The "GOTTA HAVE" car in the Camaro lineup was always the V8 car. The V6's were completely off the radar screens of most folks.

In the next generation, GM needs to identify with the 20-30 year old market with a V6 car that is not looked upon as a poor cousin to the V8 cars. It has to be a car that the age group in question WANTS TO OWN, and that any college graduate can afford as their first car out of school. This includes insurance.

The top of the line can still have nasty V8's and gobs of power, but the lower end of the performance spectrum in the V6's must be "GOTTA HAVE" cars.

The V6 cars have to be incredibly stylish, civil, and comfortable, but must retain a sporty edge and maintain low costs of ownership (including insurance).

At the top, the Z28 and SS cars should still be the world benchmark for cost/performance.

That's the formula in my mind. We at the upper end of the ponycar market tend to lose sight of the fact that the V6 cars are the core of the business case that allows our cars to exist. They are the first, crucial step to sucess.

I'd like to see a lot more discussion here as to how GM can sell 80,000 V6 cars a year, with 40,000 V8 cars on top of it, instead of the myopic focus we all have on the top-gun V8 cars. Let's see some sketches of what the base Camaro should look like, what equipment it should have, how much power, what kind of options, what kind of aftermarket should be available, and how GM can sell 80,000 of them a year. THAT is the business case that will make or break our car.

 

A FEW NOTES FROM A 22 YEAR OLD BUYER..

Dealer Issues

I have been looking at Z28's for 5 years now since I could drive and have never seen one under $25,000 on a dealers lot. Not many people under 25 can afford a car that much. Now combine in the factor that many dealers were unwilling to help younger buyers order stripper cars and you have a large market segment that is instantly priced out.

The V6 Car cost WAY too much

This was especially true in the last years of the F-body. I belive that the base MSRP is $19,000, but that is with rollup windows and no T-tops. Add just basic options and T-tops and you are over $22K. My car had an MSRP of almost $25K and really doesn't have many extras besides the sports appearence package...no leather, no chrome wheels, no Monsoon. Many buyers buy V6 Camaro's for style which means T-tops are a must..well they are an $1100 option. An automatic (which many women perfer) was a $900 option. Hell a rear defogger was damn near $300. The 1SB option package with cruise control, power windows, remote keyless entry and all was $1100. Just look at at this..

Base V6 Camaro MSRP = $19,015
1SB Option group = $1,100
T-tops= $1000
A4= $800
Rear Defroster= $300
Traction Control= $200
Tax/Tags/Title= $1,500

That isn't a car with alot of options and it would carry over a $24,000 price.

Compare that to what the Mustang offers standard for $18,000 and you see why the Camaro got it's *** kicked in V6 Sales...

I lucked out and got a good dealer on mine because I think the dealer wanted to unload Camaros....however generally a dealer will steer a girl or other V6 buyer towards a Cavalier before the come down in price or order a cheap Camaro.

There are much better cars you could buy for even $22K than a V6 Camaro...that was the problem...

What happened to $93 when a V6 MSRPed at $12,000? Inflation hasn't been that bad?

 

Hell look what $20,000 will get you with a V6 Mustang...

Almost makes me wish I would have went to the Ford dealer

 

OK, take off the $1000 for the T-Tops, because that not fair... you can't even order them on a Mustang... So saying it's a "Must Have" to the V6 buyer is BS... where are the T-Tops on the new Mustang that that person bought instead?!?!

The Tax/Title/Tags listing is irrelevant, because they apply to any car you buy... yes, that actually includes V6 Mustangs too...

Basically, a similarly equiped V6 Camaro was about $1000 more than a Mustang. Yes, that hurt a lot, and was a reason for some not to go with a V6 Camaro... but what hurt more is that you can goto a Ford dealer's lot and see 20+ Mustangs in a rainbow of colors, and they actually stocked manual trannies.

Goto a Chevy dealer, and they might have 1-3 Camaros... all equiped the same, and all in either Red, Black, or Pewter.

THAT'S the bigger issue, IMO.

 

Also, you imply here that you wanted a stripper Z28 , yet the V6 you bought has T-Tops and the Sport Appearance Package which combine for almost THREE GRAND just by themselves...

If the dealer was an issue about not wanting to help you out and order or find the car you wanted... go somewhere else. There are a lot of Chevy dealers out there.

 

I am sorry no educated Camaro buyer buys one with out T-tops...

First off they are hard to sell, secondly they have lower resale value, and third they are ugly. You have to remember image is a very important thing to the average V6 buyer...and no one wants thier freinds coming up going "Dude how come you didn't get T-tops" because tahtw ill be peoples first reaction. There was a used silver 2000 V6 Firebird here that sat in a dealers lot a year and a half because no one wants a V6 car without T-tops. On teh V8's you can argue weight, ect...but with V6 car it's not like there is much to be gained in performance.

In short if T-tops are offered on a V6 Camaro they are a must have.

Anyway V6 Camaro MSRP is still 19,000 and you have to pay 1000 just for teh basic !SB option group which has many options (cruise, keyless entry, ect)that are standard on the Mustang for $18K..

So you are already looking at similarly equiped V6 cars with the Camaro costing $20,000+ and the Mustang costing $18,000
Plus the average Camaro has options that they seem to put on every car and charge for...like body colored side moldings, traction control, and even 1SB that I mentioned above. I must have looked at the sheets for 15 cars and every one of them seemed to have at least those options. That alone makes teh car over $20,500.

For that you can get the V6 Mustang Premium

 

I think you can tell by my posts that I 100% agree on the need for V6 Camaros to be, as you say, "gotta have it" cars.

Redzed, I know you feel strongly about a V8 only Camaro, and this being a Z28 site, I'm sure there are many others that feel the same way. But I think the assumptions you are operating from is that high performance Camaros have the same following as Corvettes (which is true, but only to a point), and that the Hi performance Camaros can finance themselves, which they simply can't.

Camaros historically have been affordable and have been the counterpart to the Mustang. The enthusiast base, from what I've experienced, are people who want very quick accelerating cars, but want them on the cheap. The majority of Camaros customers, however, have traditionally been the mid-grade buyers. In the 80s, you could hardly sneeze without spraying an RS Camaro. In the 70s, it seemed every block had a Camaro LT, or an early 70s Camaro 350.

Also, is there anyone here who honestly wants to give up and forefeit an entire history of competing with Mustang by walking away from everything but V8's in the pony car market? I'm sure Bill Ford, John Coletti and the guys at Team Mustang would get a real kick out of that!

The reason that Z28s & SSs took up most of Camaros sales in the late 90s is because everyone else desserted the car! We were the only ones left, and as you see, we are not enough. If we wern't enough to keep the old car going (which was completely paid for, and still profitable on a per unit basis), what on earth makes you think we are enough to justify spending new money on a car with a more expensive chassis for a vehicle that alone would have a high price?

There was an arguement you made long ago in which you stated that instead of buying a GTO, you would instead spend the extra $16,000 and buy a Corvette or BMW. Imagine a car that has the same profile, engine, and components, that more closely resembles a Corvette, in the same showroom, selling for the same price (or more) as a GTO. Corvette already outsold Z28 with a big price gap. I don't think it would improve with a smaller one.

I think Formula is correct in the 120,000 figure, especially if Pontiac's Firebird doesn't return. Coupe sales have been in the toilet the past 5 plus years, yet a RWD Mustang still sells roughly 150,000 cars & is the best selling sports coupe. This market is nortorius for suddenly catching on fire. It did so in the late 70s & twice in the 80s, and also had a mini boom in the mid 90s till this SUV craze caught on. Seems people are starting to back down on SUVs somewhat, and what are they looking at now that they already have something very practical? Stylish sporty vehicles that have great performance! What better says that than Camaro?

But not everyone is going to the V8s, that's why Camaro really needs a very hot performing, well equipted mid-grade V6 model for the bulk of it's sales.

BTW, gtjeff, I misstated myself . I meant to say F was the lowest production chassis behind Corvette, and as far as performance cars, the LS1 Camaros were behind the more expensive LS1 & LS6 Corvettes in sales.

 

Wanting T-tops in a Camaro is not that outlandish I hate to tell you...

Also we did a buypower search when I was looking for cars and there was not a V8 car on the east coast that a dealer would let go for less than $27K and I paid less than $22K for mine.

Regardless for some reason dealers do not want to help you order a stripper car and don;t stock them..i noticed this a long time ago.