A lot of folks are talking about the advantage of ABS in the snow. In my experience this is the one area where non ABS equipped cars perform better. My previous vehicle with snow tires and non-ABS stopped better in the snow then my current vehicle with ABS and the exact same tires( not same kind, the same physical tire!!). The ABS keeps releasing pressure because the tire is not turning.

Well I rather have a tire not turning that is generating some kind of friction with the ground rather then a tire that is continuously being allowed to roll freely...

Now in the summer or in rain, give me ABS. I wish it was defeatable like traction control. ABS in the winter makes me increase my following distance because I have less confidence in my ability to stop the vehicle.


Jason

 

If your tire is not turning because of snow and locked brakes, you are in an uncontrolled slide.

That object of the game in non-ABS cars in the snow is to pump the brakes to gain control, and bring the car to a stop... the computer in a ABS system can accomplish this much more consistantly and is a shorter distance than any human.

 

Gosh darn it....I hope Cehewbaca stay my friend

1) So anyone who doesn't prefer T tops is not an educated co]

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nsumer? What an incredibly ignorant comment from someone who is supposedly in tune with the industry.

T-top cars are harder to sell..Ask any used car dealer. With teh V8's there are weight savings so hardtops can be justified...but on the V6 car, buying T-tops says one of two things.."I am cheap" or "couldn't afford T-tops". The average V6 buyer (i.e. young buyer) would rate T-tops as a must have option. No one who No buys a V6 Camaro (which they bought because of the image) wants to constantly hear "how come you didn't get T-tops"?

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2) Hard to sell? I've had more than a handful of people flag me down over the years and make unsolicited offers on my car.

You must have a V8....V6 hardtops..especially from the early 4th gen can be had all day at rock bottom prices at your average used car lot.
[b]KBB Used Car Retail Report on a 2000 V6 Camaro All the same options/mileage..

No T-tops=$12,685
T-tops=$13,620

Private Party
No T-tops=$10,680
T-tops=$11,495

There is proof that a T-top car not only looks better but is a better investment as almost all the price of teh option can be expected to be recouped by having it.

]

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3) You're worried about resale value with these cars? And you still bought a six cylinder?

Ohh...sound like you have a little !t-top! syndrome there...I already stated at the time I needed a new car with rebates to cover the negative equity in my old car and a V8 Camaro could not be had on the east coast for less than $27,000..

You probaly have a V8 hardtop..those are different like I said because there are gains in having a fixed roof.

I see plenty of people out there converting hardtop cars to T-tops...don'r recall any t-top cars being converted to hardtops...if possible it was probaly only done in an all out drag car.

]

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4) Ugly? Appearance is highly subjective. However, what about your lumpy T top roof? I won't even get into the tacked on appearance of the "sport package".

First off the target audiece for a v6 car being younger buyers is into ground effects and such...so they are a good thing to have.to be honest I always get comments on how great the car looks with them..especially from people who are not into Camaro. To be honest I only get "tacked on" comments from non-Sport appearence package V8 owners.

I personally don't like how high the Camaro sits...it looks like a Sebring on steriods and has too much ground clearence..and I think the sport appearence package helps alot to solve that problem.

Lumpy T-top roof WTF?....you have to be kiding me?

I am right behind you..

 

I have found ABS to be very helpful in tough winter conditions (which has been all-too-often this winter) and I too consider myself a good driver. There's a reason it is such a prominent option/std equip on nearly every car these days.

Besides, why are trying to kill safety features on a car that already has outrageous insurance? If nothing else, a Camaro-type car should come with more safety equipment than the average car to compensate for the accident-prone audience it attracts. I wonder if attitudes of being better than ABS, ASR systems, etc and just generally, "I know what I'm doing" have anything to do with accidents and high premiums for the rest of us are left to endure.

 

My '91 + no ABS + snow/slush + no snow tires = locked wheels, loss of steering control and a few off road excursions (luckily not even a scratch)

My '96 + ABS + snow/slush + no snow tires = tires keep turning and I've been able to steer (albeit clumsily due to the ABS action) around the obstacle (suddenly spinning cars, kids sledding, curbs)

 

Man here we go...

First off traction control in a V6 car has noting to do with ABS *i think* because it is teh two stage system that simply cuts the throttle. The individual wheel braking only happens on the V8 and is a function of the ABS.. To quote Redplanet
Anyway I said I have no problem with ABS or ASR..but they are not "Must Have" options..and ASR is really the more important of the two to me.

Far as black ice...the only way through ice is to let off the gas which ASR does...once you get on the brakes ABS or not you better be saying Hail Mary's

As for the camaro's wheels teh Mustang has upgraded machined wheels in the premium package...i would consider that the equivelent of chrome wheels on the Camaro. You also for got to add Monsoon...it may look like only a few bucks here and there but IMO it is fair to say a Mustang V6 will be at least $2,000 cheaper than a similarly equiped Camaro V6

 

And do you realize T-Tops cost over $1000 to get?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

That's why the car has a roughly $1000 (actually a little less) resale value!!

You need a clue on some of this stuff!

 

Then stop buying cars your friends will like, and buy what you want/can afford. I would think by 22 you are done trying to buy things to impress your friends. There are certainly those who prefer not to have t-tops for a multitude of reaons. It does not make them misinformed or uneducated.

I'm also not a fan of the appearance package and tape on spoiler.

As for not finding a V8, why not just pick up a year old used car that's still under warranty versus making such a big sacrifice in a V6? Having a '02 "The Last year made" isn't going to do anything for it's value for such a mass-produced, non-limited edition car.

 

See I have had trouble in the snow with non ABS i have found teh best solution to be slow the **** down and don't follow so close!

Take speed out the equation and suddenly things get easier when something does happen..even though it is less likely to because you are going slower.

i like ASR and ABS...but I have seen so many people use them as an electronic blanket to make them feel confident about driving like idiots in the snow.

 

OMG...

Pure ignornace.

 

Hrmm..using that argument since I paid $21,000 for my car it should still sell for $21,000 in 3 years right?

Your the one not making no sense....I don;t think most options hold thier entire manufactuer cost in reslae value over the life of teh car..seems the t-tops hold it well..

 

No one is saying you should go street racing in the snow because you have ABS or ASR...

Fact is, even if you drive slow, with proper distance, you can find your self in an unseen emergency situation where this equipment will save your hide.

 

I never said that.


The T-Top option does hold it's value better than some others... you're right.

But that doesn't make the other car a waste wihtout them.

If you pay an extra THOUSAND DOLLARS, just to LOSE $100 more, you are just blind.

T-Tops do not add to your value, they just lose their value slighty slower than the other options on your car.

You do see that you lost $100 on the t-tops in your example, right?

 

WTF you own a WRX...40% of a WRX's weight has to be in taped on ground effects Even worse have you seen the new STI?

As for not finding a V8, why not just pick up a year old used car that's still under warranty versus making such a big sacrifice in a V6? Having a '02 "The Last year made" isn't going to do anything for it's value for such a mass-produced, non-limited edition car. [/B][/QUOTE]

My god if I have to explain this one more time I will stick my head in the worlds largest pencil sharpener. I was $2K upside down on my Firebird because I put 40,000 miles on it 6 months...I needed a new car with all of the rebates to suck up the extra $2K on a car. If I bought like a 98 Z for $14,000 and then tacked on the $2,000 i was upside down and $1,500 tax tags and title I would ahve been trying to finance a $14,000 car for $17,500 which most banks won't let you do.

As for Darth...all you are gonna do is have the exact oposite veiw of me..so I don't know why i argue.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by formula79

[b]
T-top cars are harder to sell..Ask any used car dealer. With teh V8's there are weight savings so hardtops can be justified...but on the V6 car, buying T-tops says one of two things.."I am cheap" or "couldn't afford T-tops". The average V6 buyer (i.e. young buyer) would rate T-tops as a must have option. No one who No buys a V6 Camaro (which they bought because of the image) wants to constantly hear "how come you didn't get T-tops"?[b]

HUH? Harder to sell....but everybody wants them? Wouldn't saving weight be more justified on the lower powered six? I'm a little confused by this whole paragraph.

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Ohh...sound like you have a little !t-top! syndrome there...

Uhhh no, I specifically ordered (and waited and waited for) my car that way.

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You probaly have a V8 hardtop..those are different like I said because there are gains in having a fixed roof.

Again, why would there not be a greater gain for a six?

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I see plenty of people out there converting hardtop cars to T-tops...don'r recall any t-top cars being converted to hardtops...if possible it was probaly only done in an all out drag car.

I guess you "educated" them to the point that they decided to cut their car up.

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To be honest I only get "tacked on" comments from non-Sport appearence package V8 owners.

Hmmm, would that be a little !V8! syndrome rearing its ugly head?

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Lumpy T-top roof WTF?....you have to be kiding me?

Sigh, no I'm not kidding. As I stated looks are subjective.