A little reality check regarding the F5 Camaro
02-24-2003 | 01:20 PM
#76
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 191
From: Clinton Township, MI
I hope I was not being referred to as ignorant. I like ABS 360 days of the year...
To each their own gentlemen.
I have never received a ticket or been in an accident that was my fault in my limited (8 years) driving experience. All but one winter was with a vehicle that was not equipped with ABS. Upon the completion of this winter, it will be two.
Jason
To each their own gentlemen.
I have never received a ticket or been in an accident that was my fault in my limited (8 years) driving experience. All but one winter was with a vehicle that was not equipped with ABS. Upon the completion of this winter, it will be two.
Jason
02-24-2003 | 01:35 PM
#77
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by formula79
the second I hit the gravel the ABS would engage sending me 15 feet past where I wanted to stop...I even hit a few trash cans that way.
the second I hit the gravel the ABS would engage sending me 15 feet past where I wanted to stop...I even hit a few trash cans that way.
02-24-2003 | 01:39 PM
#78
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
The laws of physics and ABS...
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae393.cfm
http://www.billrapp.com/friend/abs.htm
... the Army invests a lot into ABS research... do you think they'd put this technology on vehicles that would be used in situations far worse than what we find in everyday driving if it didn't work?!
http://www.dtic.mil/dust/army/brake3.htm
And finally, maybe it needs to be said again, but the advantage of ABS is not in it's ability to stop the car that much faster (though it can accomplish this), but in it's ability to help the driver maintain control of a vehicle that they would not have been able to do without ABS:
http://helix.gatech.edu/Classes/ME22...jects/Windley/
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae393.cfm
http://www.billrapp.com/friend/abs.htm
... the Army invests a lot into ABS research... do you think they'd put this technology on vehicles that would be used in situations far worse than what we find in everyday driving if it didn't work?!
http://www.dtic.mil/dust/army/brake3.htm
And finally, maybe it needs to be said again, but the advantage of ABS is not in it's ability to stop the car that much faster (though it can accomplish this), but in it's ability to help the driver maintain control of a vehicle that they would not have been able to do without ABS:
http://helix.gatech.edu/Classes/ME22...jects/Windley/
Last edited by Darth Xed; 02-24-2003 at 01:45 PM.
02-24-2003 | 01:46 PM
#79
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Branden,
The older ABS systems were not necessarily 4 channel systems. On a 4 channel system each wheel can brake independantly, on a 2 channel or single channel they can't. That may explain what you observed at that time.
A modern 4 channel system will out-brake any human being on any surface condition. Given the same conditions as your first experience, you would stop shorter with the 4 channel system than you could stop without it.
As far as steering goes, with ABS you can actually steer while braking at the limit - which is something you can't do without it. One the wheels lock up during braking, they have no more "grip" to offer you in turning. An ABS system inherently balances both requirements.
The biggest problems with ABS systems were caused by the operators - they kept pumping the brakes like they had to on the old systems. Pumping an ABS system is the worst thing you can do.
To stop short or avoid a problem with ABS, slam the the pedal to the floor and steer normally.
Regards,
Dan
(Brake Engineer by trade and training)
The older ABS systems were not necessarily 4 channel systems. On a 4 channel system each wheel can brake independantly, on a 2 channel or single channel they can't. That may explain what you observed at that time.
A modern 4 channel system will out-brake any human being on any surface condition. Given the same conditions as your first experience, you would stop shorter with the 4 channel system than you could stop without it.
As far as steering goes, with ABS you can actually steer while braking at the limit - which is something you can't do without it. One the wheels lock up during braking, they have no more "grip" to offer you in turning. An ABS system inherently balances both requirements.
The biggest problems with ABS systems were caused by the operators - they kept pumping the brakes like they had to on the old systems. Pumping an ABS system is the worst thing you can do.
To stop short or avoid a problem with ABS, slam the the pedal to the floor and steer normally.
Regards,
Dan
(Brake Engineer by trade and training)
02-24-2003 | 01:48 PM
#80
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 859
From: AR (PA born and fled)
Originally posted by Darth Xed
And finally, maybe it needs to be said again, but the advantage of ABS is not in it's ability to stop the car that much faster (though it can accomplish this), but in it's ability to help the driver maintain control of a vehicle that they would not have been able to do without ABS:
And finally, maybe it needs to be said again, but the advantage of ABS is not in it's ability to stop the car that much faster (though it can accomplish this), but in it's ability to help the driver maintain control of a vehicle that they would not have been able to do without ABS:
02-24-2003 | 01:50 PM
#81
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
My little $0.01 worth......
....at Bragg-Smith, the first morning is spent learning to use ABS correctly......it really did a lot for my confidence in the newer systems and I feel like it shold be standard equipment on all cars......now if we could upgrade the drivers, we'd be safer....LOL!
02-24-2003 | 01:51 PM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Like I said I have no problems with ABS or doubt it works..i just don;t think it's a must have option IMO. As for the gravel I know it was ABS because I stopped fine in my other car that didn't have it.
Pacer is right though it was an older ABS setup probaly one of the first ones in my 88 Turbo Coupe.
Pacer is right though it was an older ABS setup probaly one of the first ones in my 88 Turbo Coupe.
02-24-2003 | 01:54 PM
#83
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 191
From: Clinton Township, MI
First article link quote
"The advantages of ABS brakes (anti-lock braking system), are just as the meaning of their acronym implies, they eliminate or greatly reduce the possibility of brake lock up and therefore provide a better chance of steering out of trouble. "
That is exactly what I am saying about my dislike of ABS on snow. It gives you a better chance of steering out of trouble. I just want to stop! On almost all surfaces, dry pavement, wet pavement, ice under two wheels, etc. For a totally snow covered road I won't be able to steer out of the way anyway so I want as much friction as possible and I want that to be under the control of my right foot. The ABS system is much faster and more skilled than I, but only I can take into account what I see out of the windshield. The ABS is a solution for all situations and only takes into account a set number of variables.
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Edit- After thinking about it more, my opinion may be based on the few dangerous stops I have encountered on snow with and without ABS. In those cases, steering was not an option. 2 lane roads with huge ditches, a bridge, etc... I need to figure out the weight difference in the cars I had with and without ABS as that may have played a roll.
Jason
"The advantages of ABS brakes (anti-lock braking system), are just as the meaning of their acronym implies, they eliminate or greatly reduce the possibility of brake lock up and therefore provide a better chance of steering out of trouble. "
That is exactly what I am saying about my dislike of ABS on snow. It gives you a better chance of steering out of trouble. I just want to stop! On almost all surfaces, dry pavement, wet pavement, ice under two wheels, etc. For a totally snow covered road I won't be able to steer out of the way anyway so I want as much friction as possible and I want that to be under the control of my right foot. The ABS system is much faster and more skilled than I, but only I can take into account what I see out of the windshield. The ABS is a solution for all situations and only takes into account a set number of variables.
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Edit- After thinking about it more, my opinion may be based on the few dangerous stops I have encountered on snow with and without ABS. In those cases, steering was not an option. 2 lane roads with huge ditches, a bridge, etc... I need to figure out the weight difference in the cars I had with and without ABS as that may have played a roll.
Jason
Last edited by dabear95; 02-24-2003 at 02:00 PM.
02-24-2003 | 01:59 PM
#87
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by dabear95
First article link quote
"The advantages of ABS brakes (anti-lock braking system), are just as the meaning of their acronym implies, they eliminate or greatly reduce the possibility of brake lock up and therefore provide a better chance of steering out of trouble. "
That is exactly what I am saying about my dislike of ABS on snow. It gives you a better chance of steering out of trouble. I just want to stop! On almost all surfaces, dry pavement, wet pavement, ice under two wheels, etc. For a totally snow covered road I won't be able to steer out of the way anyway so I want as much friction as possible and I want that to be under the control of my right foot. The ABS system is much faster and more skilled than I, but only I can take into account what I see out of the windshield. The ABS is a solution for all situations and only takes into account a set number of variables.
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Jason
First article link quote
"The advantages of ABS brakes (anti-lock braking system), are just as the meaning of their acronym implies, they eliminate or greatly reduce the possibility of brake lock up and therefore provide a better chance of steering out of trouble. "
That is exactly what I am saying about my dislike of ABS on snow. It gives you a better chance of steering out of trouble. I just want to stop! On almost all surfaces, dry pavement, wet pavement, ice under two wheels, etc. For a totally snow covered road I won't be able to steer out of the way anyway so I want as much friction as possible and I want that to be under the control of my right foot. The ABS system is much faster and more skilled than I, but only I can take into account what I see out of the windshield. The ABS is a solution for all situations and only takes into account a set number of variables.
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Jason
Having the tires locked up on snow isn't going to slow you down anymore than having the ABS pulse the brakes.... when the pulsing occurs, it is not nesasrily removing all braking force, just reducing it to the point where the wheels are able to rotate... and likly allowing you to stop in a shorter amount of space.
I don't understand why you'd want wheel lockup... it does nothing for you but cause potential loss of control... especially on a slick surface.
02-24-2003 | 02:01 PM
#88
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by dabear95
Edit- After thinking about it more, my opinion may be based on the few dangerous stops I have encountered on snow with and without ABS. In those cases, steering was not an option. 2 lane roads with huge ditches, a bridge, etc... I need to figure out the weight difference in the cars I had with and without ABS as that may have played a roll.
Jason
Edit- After thinking about it more, my opinion may be based on the few dangerous stops I have encountered on snow with and without ABS. In those cases, steering was not an option. 2 lane roads with huge ditches, a bridge, etc... I need to figure out the weight difference in the cars I had with and without ABS as that may have played a roll.
Jason
But , I still think you would not have a longer stopping distance with ABS than without...
02-24-2003 | 02:04 PM
#89
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 373
From: Anywhere but here
Originally posted by dabear95
First article link quote
[B
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Jason
First article link quote
[B
In my limited experience I feel safer with my own solution on a totally snow covered road.
Jason
It doesn't matter how much experience you have, ABS is better than you are at braking, simply for the fact that modern ABS can brake 1 WHEEL AT A TIME. Can you?
Can you tell that the rear passenger side wheel and the front drivers side wheel are getting traction while the others aren't? If you could, could you then brake the appropriate wheels? That is why modern ABS is so remarkable. Not only is it able to help you mantain steering control, it is able to brake the tires that are gripping independantly.
It's a proven fact that if your tires are locked up and skidding, it takes longer to stop than it does if your tires are still rolling. It doesn't sound right, but it is.
For a car tire, the coefficient of dynamic friction is much less than the coefficient of static friction. The car tire provides the greatest traction when the contact patch is not sliding relative to the road. When it is sliding (like during a skid or a burnout), traction is greatly reduced.
So with all 4 tires locked up and skidding, you have less traction than you would if all 4 tires were still rolling slightly, hence a shorter stopping distance.
Hope that makes sense.
02-24-2003 | 02:06 PM
#90
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by newby
I'm not sure how advanced the ABS is in the Camaros now, but modern ABS is an absolute life saver.
It doesn't matter how much experience you have, ABS is better than you are at braking, simply for the fact that modern ABS can brake 1 WHEEL AT A TIME. Can you?
Can you tell that the rear passenger side wheel and the front drivers side wheel are getting traction while the others aren't? If you could, could you then brake the appropriate wheels? That is why modern ABS is so remarkable. Not only is it able to help you mantain steering control, it is able to brake the tires that are gripping independantly.
It's a proven fact that if your tires are locked up and skidding, it takes longer to stop than it does if your tires are still rolling. It doesn't sound right, but it is.
For a car tire, the coefficient of dynamic friction is much less than the coefficient of static friction. The car tire provides the greatest traction when the contact patch is not sliding relative to the road. When it is sliding (like during a skid or a burnout), traction is greatly reduced.
So with all 4 tires locked up and skidding, you have less traction than you would if all 4 tires were still rolling slightly, hence a shorter stopping distance.
Hope that makes sense.
I'm not sure how advanced the ABS is in the Camaros now, but modern ABS is an absolute life saver.
It doesn't matter how much experience you have, ABS is better than you are at braking, simply for the fact that modern ABS can brake 1 WHEEL AT A TIME. Can you?
Can you tell that the rear passenger side wheel and the front drivers side wheel are getting traction while the others aren't? If you could, could you then brake the appropriate wheels? That is why modern ABS is so remarkable. Not only is it able to help you mantain steering control, it is able to brake the tires that are gripping independantly.
It's a proven fact that if your tires are locked up and skidding, it takes longer to stop than it does if your tires are still rolling. It doesn't sound right, but it is.
For a car tire, the coefficient of dynamic friction is much less than the coefficient of static friction. The car tire provides the greatest traction when the contact patch is not sliding relative to the road. When it is sliding (like during a skid or a burnout), traction is greatly reduced.
So with all 4 tires locked up and skidding, you have less traction than you would if all 4 tires were still rolling slightly, hence a shorter stopping distance.
Hope that makes sense.
