30k+???? If the Mustang cost that much they would sell so little it wouldnt be profitable. Ford knows better. The mustang market is very similar to the Camaro market. Pricing will be similar to what it is now. The only Mustang what should cost 30k is the Cobra.

 

Where did you hear that the Mustang Cobra is outputing 360 horsepower to the rear wheels?

You mean to tell me that the Cobra in stock form is actually producing 450 horsepower at the flywheel. C'mon! Get real.

Not only that. But by your own admission the Mustang is horrible at performance. Sub 4000 pound weight, 450 horsepower with 3.55 gearing, and all it can do is hold it's own (albeit a 12.9 ET) against a Camaro that weighs 3600 to 3700 pounds, has only 3.23 gears, and only 325 rear wheel horsepower (which also runs 12.9's) Then Ford really screwed up somewhere in the development process.

Ford has never lied about power output but in once instance back in '95 I believe. And that was not being conservative but overrating by about 20 to 30 horsepower due to a exhaust manifold design flaw.

Ford has always struggled to keep up with the power GM kicks out. The new Cobra at its best, and as much as I love it, is only as good as its normally aspirated competition the stock Camaro SS.

 

The Mustang is widely known to be underrated. It is definately makign more than 390hp. Also, theyve run much quicker than 12.9 stock. Thats like saying Camaros run 13.9 because thats what Motor Trend ran when they tested theirs. People with a few boltons (exhaust, pulley etc.) are easily runing 11s. The car is pretty fast.

 

true but i can buy a mustang now or in 05 but a GTO i can't do either(sp)so i still pick the mustang.

 

I think Ford is going to move the Mustang up in price and quality because they don't have another performance car above it. Plus with no F-body to take away sales from raising prices why not?

I pick GTO as of the info I have now.

 

All the current test magazines have reported the performance of the Cobra. To list a few Hot Rod, and Road & Track both said the Cobra was a low 13 second car, as did a number of Ford specific magazines. In the end, the fastest anyone reported was Car & Driver and they managed a best of 12.9.

At the track, I have yet to see one run faster than 12.9 in stock configuration.

And it is not widely known that Ford underrates engines. Because they never have. Not since the 60's. The boosted 281 is wheezing to kick out 390. I've seen the dyno runs myself. I wouldn't have mentioned anything if I hadn't seen it first hand.

Cobra's are very very cool and I love them because Ford finally made a Mustang that can hold it's own. But as great as it is, its still not any faster than the competition.

Please cite the articles you are referencing that talk about Fords under-rating.

 

Real reason for the GTO's styling = it was a rush job done on a low budget. That talk about competing with BMWs is just the official corporate line to explain away the conservative styling.

 

i really dont like responding to consept disscussions because 99.9% of the stuff you hear is just hearsay. however......

i personally think the new mustang is without a doubt UGLY. i dont know what all of the big fuss is about "retro" styling latley. im not really big on alot of these futuristic designs showing up either, BUT i definatly dont think that cutting off the quarters, fenders, and front ends of 30+year old cars, and sticking them on a late model design, is the way to go either.

i still dont know why the rumor of that G8 that was released a while back was never persued. that, in my opinion, would have been just what GM needed. a face that people are already familiar with, but with *****.

as for the vote of which i like better, for now, i will wait until i can see both on a lot somwhere and see the cars for myself. but i dont think any amount of HP, or low price tag, could persway me to buy a new mustang, if the pictures i have been seeing are to be its new face.

 

Real reason for GTO's styling= that's the way Monaro was styled. Monaro was picked to be a GTO because in spirit it is, and in looks, it's in line with where Pontiac is going (also having a Monaro GTO on sale in Australia probally didn't hurt).

All Pontiacs will soon be conservatively styled. look at the 2004 Grand Prix, the Bonneville, and the new Grand Am. If anything, Pontiac is moving towards Holden in styling.

Also, that competing with BMW comment came from Bob Lutz shortly after he arrived at GM last September, long before GTO was a done deal, or even an idea. That look is the direction Pontiac is going. Nope, no Watergate type coverup is going on here.

I posted an article here in which Mr. Lutz flatly dismisses the rush job contention, and bluntly says the next GTO will be even more modern (or conservative) than this one, though the next one will probally have a hoodscoop.

Mr Lutz has a reputation of being a very straightforward executive, and he seems to be the one GM exec who frequently lets things out of the bag way before anyone else.

 

Actual dyno readings. Infact if you look at the link i provided a post or 2 down, you'll find their Cobra put down 381rwhp and 374.8rwtq.

Some like the 1 MM&FF dyno tested are fairly close depending on how you calculate crank hp figures. Like the Ls-1s actual output varies. It's safe to say the 2003 Cobra is underrated and makes over 400 horses and lb-ft of tq.

Depends on where you read. You'll never see MT get a 12.9 out of an SS. I think they best they mustered with the SS was a 13.8 or 13.5. MT's test of the Cobra netted 12.84@113.5mph. Then you have Evan smiths 12.6 with a 25mph headwind and some 12.4 second runs. The 03 Cobra has got mid 12 second potential. MM&FF did a head to head test and found out that the Cobra was .46 seconds faster on average down the 1/4 mile then an Ls-1 SS. That Ls-1 SS also belted out 316rwhp on the dyno so it had *****. Before you say, "it's a Stang mag they fudged it" both GM High Tech Performance and High Performance Pontiac were there as well so it was a fair head to head comparo of the 2.

Here's that article
http://musclemustangfastfords.com/fe...ff_deathmatch/

You're talking about the 99. Look at the Lightning's dyno's. It's a 400+hp motor rated at 380. Look at the Cobra R's which put down almost as much rwhp as their flywheel ratings. You also had the 93-95 Cobra's which were underrated at 235-245.

Or so most of us think. For the most part i agree with you since GM twins have pretty much kicked Ford's *** for most of the last decade, but that wasn't "always" the case. The 93 Cobra's weren't that much slower then the 93 z28's. The 96-98 4.6L 32v were about even with the 96-97 Lt-1's. The Cobra R's (They are Ford mustangs) had little trouble with factory f-bods from their years. And the 2003 Cobra is faster then the Ls-1 f-bods. I think a .46 second difference in the 1/4 mile on average makes one siginificantly faster then the other don't you think.

Bottom line, go to an SVT board and ask for their timeslips and dyno numbers.

 

Ugh, how did I know you were going to bring that one up??? Evan Smiths' run, in a highly controversial "Press Version" and he made it known it was not the factory version 'we' would be getting. I will admit right here and now, becuase it is so evident that was NOT the Cobra You and I can buy on the lot right now. It was hopped up on purpose. And Evan stated this.

Now if you want to compare numbers. Excluding Evan's run, no one has broken 12.9 in a new Cobra that is factory stock. Both you and I know there are many a person that say "well the tires really don't make that much differance" and the like.

MM&FF tested a 2001 SS in Arizona's heat with a full tank of gas and busted out a 12.89 in bone stock trim.

I read the article, and funny how the Ford mag brought up previous issues of how fast the Cobra was, and yet not mentioning the Arizona run in an SS. But, I don't blame them for that, I know a GM mag would have done the same.

In the end, I am glad the Cobra is finally a contender, but it's not the SS beater you make it out to be. Neither of them are the clear winner. Now, it comes down to reaction time, and clutch.

However, I will say this and for what its worth (I at least) feel there is some credit in this, that the SS was the first one to break 12.8 in stock trim. And that was 2 years ago. Where was the Cobra then?

And all things aside, if you are correct on your figures, the Camaro is underpowered and under-geared and still pulls the same ET's. So that begs the question, why is the Cobra so horrible at going fast when it has all the right stuff???
I've see what 425 to 450 horsepower Camaro's do. They bust 11 second runs with that kind of power.

I won't get into the plaguing debate of comparing a supercharged car to a N/A car. But least to say, compare the two with all things equal and see what happens. Especially with it being a tie as of now, with the Camaro lacking boost!!!

I am ecstatic the Cobra is what it is. But it's also not what its not!

 

The Detroit News took about 10 "average Joes" around the NAIAS show the other day to get their impressions on the various new cars/concepts. The paper printed their thoughts today.

The people were overwhelming enthusiastic about the new Mustang but they were unimpressed by the new GTO. Not a good start for the Monaro GTO.

 

Here are some links. One or two are 355, the rest are 360+ RWHP, SAE corrected. You are welcome to call all of these cars

"ringers" if you like, and/or call their owners liars, if it makes you feel better.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=27787
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=26693
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=24956
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=24241
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=19028

No, it does not make 450 at the flywheel in stock form, more like 400-420. A car in this power range typically loses 45-50 HP through the drivetrain. Do the math.

Lots of inaccuracies here.

a) It does not have 450 HP
b) With driver, a stock 03 likely weighs ~3800-3900 lbs
c) Stock to stock, equal drivers, it will more than "hold its own" against a Camaro
d) Camaro's typically weigh 3500-3600 lbs, with driver
e) Stock A4 Camaro's do not make 325 RWHP in bone stock trim. Some M6's make near 320, but not A4's. If they do, please provide the evidence to back up your claim, as I have done for you.
f) A bone stock A4 02 LS1 that runs 12.9 is a rare breed indeed. There are M6 LS1's that have busted into the 12's in bone stock trim.
g) Ford didn't screw up as much as you wish. Read on, please.

Bologna. There was never an "exhaust manifold design flaw" in any Mustang, and certainly not in 95. The 99 Cobra was over-rated, due to a restrictive intake and poor catback. They were subsequently recalled and "fixed".

Quite misleading. From 98-02, this is a true statement. Previous to that, some years went Ford's way, others went GM.

"Good" is a very subjective term. If we are talking acceleration, then you are incorrect. Stock to stock, the average 03 Cobra will beat the average LS1. Keep reading for links that provide evidence of my assertion.

Have you ever seen what Hot Rod, RT, MT, and C&D get out of LS1's? Please do a search and find out (I have). None of them
come close to 12.9 - most certainly not C&D. Regardless, I've never raced magazines.

I have yet to see a stock LS1 run 12.9 either. Does that mean they can't?

Correct...until the 03 Cobra came out.

Quite inaccurate. See above links.

From reading your post, I think you would. Regardless, see links above.

It is not faster than a Z06. Other than that, I believe you to be incorrect - setting aside the fact that there is no 03 F-body.

See links above.

Evan Smith is a friend of mine. I have talked with him and raced with him. Please show me ANYTHING that says the 03 Cobra he tested was "hopped up". In fact, if you were a regular reader to the mag, you would find that they got ~380 RWHP STD, which converts to ~365 SAE, which is right in line with what I have posted above.

It is not usually wise to talk out of ones bottom end in the presence of those that know you are doing such.

Incorrect:

- http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=24633
- http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=16403 (this one had a silencer removed, sorry)
- http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=22659 (this one had a K&N - sorry, hard to find bone stock)
- http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...threadid=27247 (you'll need to scroll through this one)

Incorrect. MM&FF tested a 2001 SS in the heat of Englishtown, and it went 12.96 - not 12.89.

Got credibility?

Back in 99, a Z28 (not SS) went 12.89 in very, very good air. Evan Smith was the pilot - I talked to him about it 2 weeks after he did it. Most impressive.

News flash - the same folks that do MM&FF also do GMHTP. And the article that you are likely referring to was a back-to-back-to-back test of a 03 Cobra with an SS. Did you actually read the results? I believe the ET difference was almost 6 tenths, correct?

Keep dreaming. I will readily agree that an LS1 F-body (especially a 01 or 02) is great running machine, and quite worthy of the praise it usually gets, it is still several clicks behind the 03 Cobra.

Actually, it was 4 years ago, and again, it was a Z28. At that time, the Cobra was well behind it. What does that have to do with the 03 Cobra? Now that the 03 Cobra is out, where is the 03 F-body? See the simile?

The Camaro is certainly under-geared (all cars are from the factory), but it does not pull the same ET's stock. Sorry.

LOL. They can "bust" 11 second runs with far less power. One individual in particular - John Campbell (goes by Raughammer on other Forums) ran 11.5's with ~325 RWHP. I'm running 11.6's with 312 RWHP. Do the math.

What is equal? Equal is how they came from the factory. The very lame and very tired excuse about the LS1 not having a blower is no different than the equally tired and lame excuse about the 4.6 being 1.1 liters less than the LS1. Give it a break - it only makes you look immature and uninformed.

I don't even know what this statement is supposed to mean, but ok.

Have a nice day.

 

mark me down for a GTO not in 2004 but hopefully 2005
i cant beleive it isn't comming to canada
that is a bunch of

 

I agree .... I can't believe it either. But I have the e-mail from GM canada. I even asked the editor of CanadianDriver.com who wrote back ....

(Quote) Ted,

Sadly, you're correct. The 2004 GTO is not coming to Canada. GM of Canada spokesperson Phil Kling, had this to say,

"The volume is too low to justify the modifications needed for the Canadian regulatory requirements."

Of course, if they sell a whole bunch of them, maybe they'll reconsider next year.

Greg Wilson
Editor
CanadianDriver.com - "Canada's Online Auto Magazine"

(End Quote)

But remember when they (GMcanada) in 2000 or 2001 didn't sell the formula up here. You could get a Firebird, or a Trans Am .... but no formula. In 2002 it was back again .... what a bunch of ******* ...

I would love to have the new GTO .... Our only hope is 2005 or an american invasion.

Ted