Does anyone know which division was GM's 3rd highest seller for 2005 behind only Chevy and GMC? PONTIAC

So after GM closest its 3rd best selling division at an astronomical cost (Scott has mentioned the staggering expense of closing Olds), where does it recover the nearly half million unit sales from? (437,806 for '05) This is a somewhat rhetorical question since Pontiac is'nt going anywhere, any more than a company with 19 billion in cash and profitable operations in every global market except north america (GMAC is very profitable here) will be filing bankruptcy anytime soon...

After observing the amount of traffic present at the GM exhibit at the LA auto show (there was a lot, and not just at the Camaro concept and LA is the import capital!) And knowing that Chevy's Head to Head advertising campaign has been overwhelmingly successful at increasing the interest of internet shoppers in GM products (the #s are staggering) I think we may be standing on the threshold of something here. Lady momentum may be "changing jerseys" so to speak. How soon all of this converts to sales is anyone's guess, but I think it may be sooner than we think. Can you feel it?

 

While I doubt it would ever happen, in our lifetimes anyway, I'm not so sure that if GM reduced itself to fewer nameplats that it woud be a bad thing, at least not as a business decision.

There was a time when a Pontiac was truly different than an Oldsmobille or a Buick, etc but that hasn't been true for a very long time now.

I would suspect there would be a lot of money saved in the long run were GM to concentrate on market segments/price points but reduce the number of nameplates to two or three (Cadillac for the luxury market, GMC for all trucks and all other cars could be badged as Chevrolet or even a simple “GM” moniker).

While it would be sad for those of use who grew up as a Pontiac or Olds "guy", it might be a better way to organize.

Dealerships and their contracts with them might be the real sticking point.

I never followed what GM did for Oldsmobills dealers (especially if that was the only nameplate they were selling), what happened to them?

 

I tend to agree with you. The giant is waking!!

 

I don't think Pontiac's going anywhere anymore, and neither is Buick. Despite the crying of Buickman to the contrary, Wagoner has already committed himself to not cutting any more brands. He's likely the one who called Bob Lutz to task when he said Buick & Pontiac were "Damaged Brands".

So perish the thought as long as Rick Wagoner is CEO.

 

As much as I'd like to believe that Pontiac isn't going to be killed off, if I were a betting man, I'd put my money against Pontiac. Here's why:

1) While killing Olds cost a fortune, Pontiac would be a fraction of that. Why? Because Pontiac, Buick, and GMC have merged into one identity. After that consolidation is complete, you can kill the Pontiac brand without the expense of buying out whole dealerships. As you blend markerting material, how hard is it to start fading one out? I'm not saying it wouldn't cost something: I am saying that it wouldn't cost nearly as much as Olds' death.

2) Saturn's got the product that Pontiac SHOULD be getting. It's not too hard of a stretch to see that the Aura is what the G6 should have been & that the Vue is a much more competant/exciting vehicle than the Torrent. Saturn's got a compact car & Pontiac doesn't even have one. Saturn's lineup is much, much newer while Pontiac is saddled with the aging Grand Prix. Saturn's even got a Solstice twin in the Sky. It's easy to see that Saturn and Pontiac are after the same market segment.

3) Saturn doesn't have GM's baggage. Being a relatively new brand (read: not having existed when GM was churning out crap) & one that focuses on the customer having a positive experience, Saturn's got something that GM craves: a line of vehicles that can target (& win) conquest sales. Pontiac simply doesn't have that.

4) Finally: While Wagoneer is committed to not killing another brand, who here is willing to stand behind the idea that Wagoneer will be running the company in 5 years? How about even in 2 years? While GM has definately made strides, the fact is that people are screaming for his head right now. GM's turnaround is moving slow. Even though you can look at quality, efficiency, etc and see legit improvements, GM sales continue to slide because of the relentlessly negative press and the well-earned legacy of building shoddy vehicles. Investors want profit NOW -- not in 2 years, not in 5 years. In fairness, I don't think anybody could get GM's performance to improve that quickly -- but that's the climate of things right now.

 

Pontiac has a very long life left as long as they keep producing good cars, the GTO was a good idea, as well as the solstice, they were both risky though. If you look into foreign auto...they don't change name plates often, tehy stick with a name plate and refine them over years and years. If GM can keep their good models that shine through time and time again, and revitalize the ones that show slacking sales they will never loose a cent. I realize that marketing isn't that simple, but sometimes you have to look at it in a simple way to see what really hits them below the belt. Foreign auto is taking the fight to us, they took the economy class, and now they are working on the long lived truck class with "american reliability". Funny how even Nissan talks about the titan being a "real american truck". Ofcourse I'm happy with the way GM is shaping up recently but they have a ways to go, namley the production of my next car - the Camaro....or the GTO im split on that decision!

 

I have to go with cmutt on this one, although if something would be cut I see it as Buick. The Buick/Pontiac/GMC channel strategy would make it easier to eliminate a brand once there are no stand alone single franchise dealerships. When a brand like Buick eliminates models with high brand equity like Park Ave, Century and LeSabre, one has to wonder what is the ultimate goal for the brand. Pontiac has the potential to prosper with the right product mix and marketing.

 

Both Buick & Pontiac have long, rich histories. I'm against either one of them closing their doors. I'm just saying that if you were to take a look at the state of each brand, Pontiac appears to be in more danger than Buick. Take a look at new product investment alone: Lacross, Lucerne, Enclave vs G6? You could maybe include the Solstice, but being that you've got a knock-off in the Sky, keeping Pontiac around for that reason alone just doesn't really cut it. If Lutz has his stated way, Caddy will continue to move upscale (BMW/Mercedes) and Buick will fulfill that mid-lux segment (Audi, Acura, Lexus). Poor Pontiac has overlap virtually everywhere -- especially with Saturn. If you follow the money, Pontiac is being shorted right now. They've didn't get a compact, the G6 is a (thankfully) re-skinned Malibu with better powerplant choices. The Torrent is not much more than a Equinox with a different front-clip. The Grand Prix is ancient. The Soltice is hot -- but that's a niche vehicle & the Sky offers you everyting the Solstice does. The GTO appears to be the only Pontiac that has a distinct, unique identity -- and when the Camaro debuts, you won't be able to even say that. So you tell me this: if you are bleeding cash and your brands are struggling to maintain (or even obtain) an identity, at what point do you look at Pontiac in it's current form and start thinking of Pontiac as an expense instead of an asset?

One last thing in regard to sales: Looking at sales numbers by themselves is a faulty measurement. If you've got a high build cost and/or you've had to discount vehicles to sell them, then you could be taking a loss on those sales. A crude, extreme example: you could make every Pontiac $100 and you'd sell 1b Pontiacs this year. It would be GM's #1 division -- but GM would take a bath on it & would hardly want to keep it around. Pontiac could very well be GM's sales leader because (1) they pimp Grand Prix's out to fleets by the trainload, and (2) they discount their vehicles to hell because it's "cheaper" to take a marginal loss per vehicle than it is to idle a plant. A better measurement would be profit. I don't think I've ever seen profit/vehicle or their profit/brand numbers.

 

I think Buick is getting safer everyday. The Lucerne is doing well. The Enclave looks fantastic. There is a rumored "Buick Super" line of performance Buicks coming. Buick is a growing brand in China...selling as many cars there as they do here.

But, Pontiac MUST get one car absolutely, 'hit the nail on the head', right ...and that car is the G6. Does G6 sound just as anonymous as all the ACME stuff that Wile E. Coyote used trying to catch the Road Runner, to anyone?

The problem with the G6 is that it is merely good. Not great. It's not better than a Honda Accord, and that's what it really needs to be. Is it better than a Sonata? I don't know, but it's scarey that I'm asking that question.

It will soon have a full line up - and that's great, but that line up needs to be sweetened, mostly in the powertrain and chassis tuning department, IMO. And I wish it had a real name as well. How about Tempest?

 

Not to mention, GM cars are the ONLY ones on the market in 2006 with pushrod V6s.

We can debate the merits of valvetrain configurations all day long, but the fact is GM is facing an image problem, and OHV V6s don't help that one bit. Especially in a "performance" brand. G6 should have had only the EcoTec and HFV6 as options.

 

As usual, all good points from you.

But I can't help wondering about what a successful execution of G8 will do for Pontiac? The 300C is proof American consumers haven't forgotten the value aspect in RWD V6 and V8s. Give Pontiac a chance and they will build their market share... as long as they have a complete car lineup they will have every chance.

 

I highly doubt any more brands being cut.

The doom and gloom about what seems to be everything gets so tiring ...

The simple fact that Pontiac was 2005's 3rd best selling brand for GM says a lot... add to the fact that when Olds was closed... GM did not simply pick up it's sales with other divisions, they basically just lost those sales, and that is enough to end the arguement right there, IMO.

 

Without getting into the "buy American/is it American if it's built here" argument; the reason Nissan calls it a "real american truck" as you say is that it was designed here and virtually every detail/ideal incorporated into the Titan came from what Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Dodge truck buyers said they needed or wanted in a pick-up.

For a first try at a "full-sized" truck I think they did a good job...I like the features on the Titan, particularly the factory applied spray-in bed liner and the in-bed track/tie down system.

 

The Solstice and Solstice GXP, have really lit a fire in the Excitment camp at Pontiac, they're all the talk around here. After seeing them at NAIAS, I see why. The GTO had no shortage of people swarming it either, as did the new G6 Vert., nice clean cut, sporty car.
I see them already on the way back, and Buick isn't far behind.

 

Solstice GXP was a surprise. And a good one.