guionM

The 2004 Mustang Cobra.
Supercharged DOHC V8.
Just over 400 horsepower.
0-60 in about 4.6 seconds.
quarter mile in 12.9 at 112 according to Car & Driver (April 2003)

The 2007 Mustang GT500
Supercharged DOHC V8.
Just over 500 horsepower.
0-60 in about 4.5 seconds.
12.9 1/4 mile @ just over 112 mph according to Motorweek.

The 2008 Shelby Super Snake
Again, a blown DOHC V8
About 600 horsepower.
0-60 in 4.4 seconds.
Quarter mile in 12.5 at 120 mph according to Road & Track (12/07).



2008 Corvette Z06
7.0 V8
505 horsepower
0-60 in 3.6 seconds
11.7 @ 125 in the quarter

2009 Corvette ZR1
supercharged 6.2 V8
620 horsepower
0-60 estimated at 3.3 seconds
1/4 mile estimated at 11.6 @ 129.

In both the Mustang and Corvette's case, 100 horsepower equals very little if any gain in acceleration.

The GT500 is a wash next to the 100 horse short Cobra.

Even the 600 horsepower Super Snake is barely quicker than the Cobra, let alone the GT500.

The extra 100 plus horsepower (and additional $30,000) gets you a Corvette that's 3/10s quicker to 60 (bigger better tires?) but is virturally a wash in the quarter mile.

In all cases, along with the extra horsepower, we end up with a car that costs more and is notably heavier than the version it's placed above (the ZR1 weighs 3400 pounds next to the Z06's 3150... yes, it gains 250 pounds!)

This seems to add even more fuel to the idea that the horsepower race has reached the end of it's practicality. Additional horsepower means additional weight in order to keep the same safety and durability margins. That also means more fuel usage..... all for no real gain.

If the Camaro SS or Z28 (or whatever is the volume performance Camaro) comes with a 430-450 horse V8, I really have to question the value of having a 500++ horsepower Camaro that's going to need 250 plus pounds worth of supercharging equptment and reinforced driveline let alone many thousands of dollars in premium (in addition to a gas guzzler tax) if someone doing nothing more than a modest axle ratio change is going to match it's performance in everything save top speed.

Having actually driven my Camaro on a deserted straight level Arizona freeway at over 155 mph (a event that borders on terrifying on uneven public roads) and the length of road that it takes to get up to that speed, I can honestly say that a top speed over that won't be missed by anyone. (Anyone who says they routinely drive that fast is either lying or will likely be dead or rotting in jail within a year). With proper gearing tuning, and a structure that doesn't need to be engineered like a bank vault to handle a gazillion horsepower, a 325 horse 5.3 can likely accelerate like a 450 horse Camaro up to a quarter mile and can likely get a few mpg better mileage in the process.

Like everyone else, I am amazed at the horsepower figures showing up in today's cars. Not long ago, 350 horsepower was shocking. Then 400. Then 450. then 500. Then 600. The Viper is already poised for 700. For another few months, you can order a frigging station wagon with 425 horsepower... and that number is conservative!

But numbers now have become nothing more than a bragging game with little or no real performance gain, but with very real weight and fuel economy penalties.

There will always be super cars like the ZR1 and Super Snakes. But as far as volume performance cars, I believe the new CAFE standards are a way to bring a bit of sanity (and reinstall the fun to drive factor) back into performance cars.

jg95z28

I'm not sure where you get 250-lbs from. Regardless, like the Z06/ZR1, I'm sure the topdog Camaro would use weight savings materials to make up the difference.

I'm more concerned with the insinuation that straight line performance is the sole reason for building a 500++ hp Camaro. Superior braking and handling is also my motive. Just because some people don't see the logic/need for such a car does not mean others feel the same way. I'm quite confident that GMs purpose behind the Z06 and ZR1 were not soley based upon 1/4 mile and zero to 60 times.

97z28/m6

all that means is their tires suck.

97z28/m6

but they could also do that with a 435hp camaro too.

willz

Wow, I could not agree more!! Extra horses are going to = extra mass and fuel consumption and, I'm sorry, you don't have to be a tree hugger to realize that you need all the MPG you can get in these days of $3 a gallon gas and $100 a barrel oil! I for one want a good all around package.
You are absolutely right, not long ago 350 HP WAS shocking. When I bought my new '85 IROC years ago, 215 HP was shocking! And that car was and is a blast to drive.
I will be buying a new Camaro, but not the "top dog" as everyone calls it just so I can say I've got 500HP . Give me a nice, balanced Z28 package with 350-400 HP and decent economy and I will be thrilled! The less money I send to the middle east th better in my view. Thanks for the very common sense post and the numbers to back it up!

guionM

Z06 weighs 3150.
ZR1 weighs 3400 pounds according to the car mags.

OK. So the puropse of the ZR1 is to push the edge of technology. Having brakes that don't fade after repeated stops from 200 mph is something we will find we can't live without & use everyday. But the point still is, extra horsepower isn't gaining extra performance benefits. Sure, top speed benefits, but you aren't likely to ever see the top speed if it's over 155.

As my point was, it's all become nothing more than a bragging contest with no practical gains.

First time I've ever heard someone say that a set of 335/25YR-20s that probally cost more individually than the set of 4 G-Force tires on my Camaro and probally have as much grip as all 4 tires combined suck.

Chrome383Z

I'll buy the 400hp camaro and turn it into a 600hp Camaro myself.

Agree with above statement, their gearing/tires sucked for 1/4 mile. Fix that and you're in the 10s.

Chrome383Z

I could get a set of 225/55/R16's to hook better then a set of 335s on 20s.

Anything over 15-16" Kills you're 0-60 times and corrosponding 1/4 mile times.

Contrary to Ricer Popular Opinion.

96SSConv#2033

Copy and paste from corvetteforum.com (alleged quote from ZR1's chief engineer):

You won't see a huge difference in 0-60 mph because even the Z06 is traction-limited through most of that," he says. "But in the quarter-mile and tests from zero to 100 mph to zero, there will be big differences."

And just to up the ZR1's chest-puffing quotient, Juechter notes this car "will be able to take the production-car track record at any racetrack."

end c/p

GM's intent is not to build a quarter mile rocket. If it was they would have stripped it down to keep the weight lower and changed the gearing. The point is in the bold - a better all around car.

B

96_Camaro_B4C

I think the car will do better than a 1 tenth improvement over the Z06 in the 1/4 mile.

And CAFE is still bulls***, no matter how it is sliced.

BUT, I've driven the 505 hp C6 Z06 a couple of times (along with several C5s), and it really is more or less beyond the limit for practical / enjoyable use on most public roads.

650 hp in a 3350 lb car would be bordering on insane for a street car.

I've wondered, when reading tests of the tuner cars (like the 1000+ hp twin turbo Vipers and Vettes from Hennessee and LPE), how those owners really get to enjoy them on the street. I think a lot of it is probably bragging rights.

When a 505 hp Z06, with relatively tall gearing, has trouble hooking up...how is a 1000 hp twin turbo car going to hook up? Well, they don't, really.

Chrome383Z

Agreed. But just think what it could do with a steep gear ratio and a set of Hoosiers on there!


(Although, you'd probably blow the diff! )

Clean97Z

I would bet the ZR1 turns in better times than the estimated ones. Even though it weighs more it should make more power throughout the entire power band. With people already running 10's in stock Z06's this thing should be able to easily get into the mid 10's.

Anyone who can afford this car isn't going to be concerned about gas prices. If they are worried than they can't afford the car to begin with.

I do agree that 620hp isn't necessary, but the straight line thrust would be fun. If I had to choose between a better setup car or horsepower I would choose the better setup. Because most of the cars you list have far more horsepower than you need to ever use on the road, and more than you could use on most any road course. All they do is make it harder to drive for the average guy, and they'll spend most of their time over driving it into the corners.

Doug Harden

I have to giggle every time I read someone say things like, "practical" and "everyday use" when they speak of the ZR1.....as if......

And then make me bust out laughing when they speak of having too much horsepower....as if....

It ain't the point guys...people who buy these and drive them as their intended know how to use the hp and when to use it.

IF, I could afford a ZR1, I'd drive the wheels off of it...and not on some 1/4 mile dead end road either....these cars were meant for road racing...God I love them both!!

Josh452

The 620hp is an at least horsepower rating from GM. They've said that it will make at LEAST 100hp per liter.

The # will be more when it's unveiled in Detroit.

90rocz

As someone recently pointed out to me in another thread.
These cars aren't set up for 1/4 mile drag from the factory, which is going to show in all acceleration tests as well.

Since they must be able to corner, stop, and everything in between, very well, compromises in the chassis will hurt traction at some point.

That point has probably been reach, even with fat Michelin Pilots.
Hence my thread about "traction", which I'd love to see improved more than adding 100 HP!

But the ZR1 is more about bragging rights anyways, a shot directed at the Viper no doubt, and I think it hit target.