Swapping from 3.23's to 4.10's. 6 speed
12-20-2003, 11:46 AM
#1
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Location: Novi MI
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Swapping from 3.23's to 4.10's. 6 speed
I did an M6 swap and left the stock gears in. Its one with the 2.66 1st gear.
When I took it to the track I ran a best of 13.98@104.88 w/2.3 60'. I had stock tires and they would either bog or burn. I'm wondering what kind of times I will run with a 4.10 gear and some decent traction like a 2.0 60'. What do you guys think?
When I took it to the track I ran a best of 13.98@104.88 w/2.3 60'. I had stock tires and they would either bog or burn. I'm wondering what kind of times I will run with a 4.10 gear and some decent traction like a 2.0 60'. What do you guys think?
12-20-2003, 12:09 PM
#2
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Well if you go to a higher gear like 4.10's traction is going to be even harder then what it is now for you. I would try better tires 1st and see what happens because your MPH is really good and with that MPH you should be in the low 13's maybe high 12's with good traction.
12-20-2003, 01:05 PM
#5
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Location: Melbourne, Florida
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93z286speed, ha NICE NAME LOL !!
You didn't read his post fully, he did a M6 swap, he probably got a 93 rear end, they just all came stock with 3.23's , some rarer models came with 2.73 in the rear end.
I will be honest with you man, you have 3.23's now, don't change them. I have a true 93 car, with the good m29 tranny ( viper ) and stock it had 3.23 gears.
I put in 3.73's I like them, but it is plenty of gear for me, I did not gain anything by doing them, but it put me into a power band in 4th gear, going through the traps. SO when I do my motor work I will be perfectly in the 5500 range making full power.
Gearing is all directly related to what you plan on doing in the future with the car. If you are gonna spray or modify the motor, don't do a whole lot of gearing. That is my advise, but there are people out there that will say I'm wrong. and I very well might be.
It all depends on the person and what they do, and HOW they like the car.
Hope that helps.
Paul
You didn't read his post fully, he did a M6 swap, he probably got a 93 rear end, they just all came stock with 3.23's , some rarer models came with 2.73 in the rear end.
I will be honest with you man, you have 3.23's now, don't change them. I have a true 93 car, with the good m29 tranny ( viper ) and stock it had 3.23 gears.
I put in 3.73's I like them, but it is plenty of gear for me, I did not gain anything by doing them, but it put me into a power band in 4th gear, going through the traps. SO when I do my motor work I will be perfectly in the 5500 range making full power.
Gearing is all directly related to what you plan on doing in the future with the car. If you are gonna spray or modify the motor, don't do a whole lot of gearing. That is my advise, but there are people out there that will say I'm wrong. and I very well might be.
It all depends on the person and what they do, and HOW they like the car.
Hope that helps.
Paul
12-20-2003, 05:28 PM
#6
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Ok guys, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I have a 95 transam, 6 speed transmission from a 95' F-body, with the stock 3.23 gear from when it was an automatic (I did an A4 conversion). Most A4 fbodys have 3.23 gears.
When I took it to the track the first time I had the stock tires on which were crap and dry rotted, now when I stay stock I don't mean originals, just mean stock size 245/50/16's. I now have 275/40/18's which grab way better than the stockers.
I realize the tires are going to want to spin a lot more off the line with the 4.10's BUT, I garauntee I will get better 60' times.
See with the 3.23's it's like launching the car in 2nd gear, so it wants to bog real bad, but rev it too high and the tires just burn, give it a sticky tire and watch the clutch smoke, its a real hard compromise. Now with the 4.10's I will be able to launch at a lower rpm and not have the engine bog as bad, also if it still wants to spin real bad I will get a set of DR's or slicks.
So I say again I ran a 13.98@104.88 w/2.3 60'. What should my
times be if I swap to a 4.10 and get about a 2.0 60'?
When I took it to the track the first time I had the stock tires on which were crap and dry rotted, now when I stay stock I don't mean originals, just mean stock size 245/50/16's. I now have 275/40/18's which grab way better than the stockers.
I realize the tires are going to want to spin a lot more off the line with the 4.10's BUT, I garauntee I will get better 60' times.
See with the 3.23's it's like launching the car in 2nd gear, so it wants to bog real bad, but rev it too high and the tires just burn, give it a sticky tire and watch the clutch smoke, its a real hard compromise. Now with the 4.10's I will be able to launch at a lower rpm and not have the engine bog as bad, also if it still wants to spin real bad I will get a set of DR's or slicks.
So I say again I ran a 13.98@104.88 w/2.3 60'. What should my
times be if I swap to a 4.10 and get about a 2.0 60'?
12-20-2003, 05:55 PM
#7
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Ok well you can do what you want, but I recommend sticking with your stock gears for a while, and try out what I recommend.
Running 18" wheels at the track is the first thing you don't want to do. Get some stock sized wheels with some nittos, M&H, MT, doesn't matter, get something that is sticky.
You are now getting a 13.98 @ 104.88 on a Manual 6speed car. With a 2.3 Sixty foot.
Forget about the gears, put a tire on there, and I can GUARANTEE you will get no less then a 2.0 Sixty foot which will put you three tenths faster just at the jump, and more then likely close to a 1/2 second on your ET. For making nearly 105 MPH traps, You should trap no less then a 13.5xx ET.
YOu have to become familiar with that six speed tranny and you will be happy with it.
If you don't like the outcome which I'm trying to tell you ( put tires on try it at least.) Then go ahead and do gears.
I'm just saying jumping from a 3.23 to 4.10 is a large jump and you may not like it.
Just because you have a shorter gear in first when putting a bigger ring and pinion ratio, in the rear, does not always guarantee you getting a better 60' short time.
You need to launch the car in first gear SLIPPING the clutch, don't dump it, if your clutch is smoking in first gear, while easing the clutch ( slipping ) then you need to get that taken care of before you do anywork on the car itself.
EDIT- I see you are from Mt. Clemens in Michigan. Why don't you contact Paul Steepe from Street Lethal Performance F-Bodys. He will point you in the right direction if you plan on doing gears. He has a 6 speed car and he has put gears in his car ALSO.
I am part of street lethal, I"m just trying to help you NOT make a decision you may regret doing.
check them out... http://www.streetlethalperformance.com
send them an email to attn : of Paul Steepe.
Paul
Running 18" wheels at the track is the first thing you don't want to do. Get some stock sized wheels with some nittos, M&H, MT, doesn't matter, get something that is sticky.
You are now getting a 13.98 @ 104.88 on a Manual 6speed car. With a 2.3 Sixty foot.
Forget about the gears, put a tire on there, and I can GUARANTEE you will get no less then a 2.0 Sixty foot which will put you three tenths faster just at the jump, and more then likely close to a 1/2 second on your ET. For making nearly 105 MPH traps, You should trap no less then a 13.5xx ET.
YOu have to become familiar with that six speed tranny and you will be happy with it.
If you don't like the outcome which I'm trying to tell you ( put tires on try it at least.) Then go ahead and do gears.
I'm just saying jumping from a 3.23 to 4.10 is a large jump and you may not like it.
Just because you have a shorter gear in first when putting a bigger ring and pinion ratio, in the rear, does not always guarantee you getting a better 60' short time.
You need to launch the car in first gear SLIPPING the clutch, don't dump it, if your clutch is smoking in first gear, while easing the clutch ( slipping ) then you need to get that taken care of before you do anywork on the car itself.
EDIT- I see you are from Mt. Clemens in Michigan. Why don't you contact Paul Steepe from Street Lethal Performance F-Bodys. He will point you in the right direction if you plan on doing gears. He has a 6 speed car and he has put gears in his car ALSO.
I am part of street lethal, I"m just trying to help you NOT make a decision you may regret doing.
check them out... http://www.streetlethalperformance.com
send them an email to attn : of Paul Steepe.
Paul
12-20-2003, 07:34 PM
#8
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Location: cinci
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Originally posted by 93_Z28_6spd
Forget about the gears, put a tire on there, and I can GUARANTEE you will get no less then a 2.0 Sixty foot which will put you three tenths faster just at the jump, and more then likely close to a 1/2 second on your ET. For making nearly 105 MPH traps, You should trap no less then a 13.5xx ET.
Forget about the gears, put a tire on there, and I can GUARANTEE you will get no less then a 2.0 Sixty foot which will put you three tenths faster just at the jump, and more then likely close to a 1/2 second on your ET. For making nearly 105 MPH traps, You should trap no less then a 13.5xx ET.
12-21-2003, 01:25 AM
#9
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Thanks for the input. I agree with what you are saying. But I think you are misunstanding my point. I might want to mention that I plan on getting an LT4 hot cam soon. Right now my car gets great traction with the 3.23/ 18's. Traction is not an issue, although it was at the time I went to the track. If it does become an issue with the 4.10's I'll just get some DR's. I think if I could get it to hook with 4.10's it will go faster than with the 3.23's.
I guess the main reason I want them is to put less wear on my clutch and to aid with the cam swap. It will go aprox. 50-55mph in 1st now and with a cam it will be like 60mhp.
I guess the main reason I want them is to put less wear on my clutch and to aid with the cam swap. It will go aprox. 50-55mph in 1st now and with a cam it will be like 60mhp.
12-21-2003, 06:53 PM
#11
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Location: Melbourne, Florida
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Yes I did mean " no slower then 2.0 sixty foot "
Well you go ahead and do what you want, To me a 2.3 sixty foot is not hooking at all, that is where you need to take care of the problem BEFORE you get gears. Get your traction/gearing issues taken care of before you go diving into the motor to put a cam in, that will just give you more power, which = more traction issues to follow.
I will tell you , you will gain about a tenth at most by doing the gear swap. Why can I tell you this? Because I did a gear swap on a 93 m29 car that is more agressively geared then your M6 that you have. Me going from 3.23 to 3.73, will be about equal to you going from 3.23 to a 3.9x gear If they would ever make a gear that odd ratio.
What I'm trying to tell you is a 4.10 is overkill, if you are going to do gears, do a 3.73. It will still make you happy by giving you shorter gears, if you go with a 4.10 , you can just count on that first gear on the street USELESS. If you are at the track and run a sticky tire, you might like the benefit of doing the gears.
That is my 2 cents, what you do is entirely up to you. Just trying to help you out, from what I Have experienced. I've driven a lot of six speed cars, and gone through a rear end. And burned up quite a few sets of tires at the track. If you don't belive me, ask any of the street lethal guys if you take the time to contact them.
Paul
Well you go ahead and do what you want, To me a 2.3 sixty foot is not hooking at all, that is where you need to take care of the problem BEFORE you get gears. Get your traction/gearing issues taken care of before you go diving into the motor to put a cam in, that will just give you more power, which = more traction issues to follow.
I will tell you , you will gain about a tenth at most by doing the gear swap. Why can I tell you this? Because I did a gear swap on a 93 m29 car that is more agressively geared then your M6 that you have. Me going from 3.23 to 3.73, will be about equal to you going from 3.23 to a 3.9x gear If they would ever make a gear that odd ratio.
What I'm trying to tell you is a 4.10 is overkill, if you are going to do gears, do a 3.73. It will still make you happy by giving you shorter gears, if you go with a 4.10 , you can just count on that first gear on the street USELESS. If you are at the track and run a sticky tire, you might like the benefit of doing the gears.
That is my 2 cents, what you do is entirely up to you. Just trying to help you out, from what I Have experienced. I've driven a lot of six speed cars, and gone through a rear end. And burned up quite a few sets of tires at the track. If you don't belive me, ask any of the street lethal guys if you take the time to contact them.
Paul
12-21-2003, 07:34 PM
#12
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Location: Wisconsin
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he is not spinning his tires he is taking off super slow because his car is geared wrong. M6's are supposed to have 3.42's not 3.23's so he has to slip the clutch more to get going. I say do the gear swap. I think it wold help tremendosly
12-21-2003, 08:35 PM
#13
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I don't agree with this statement. If you have a six speed with a 3.23 rear end , you will have no problem taking off out of the hole. I never had any problems with any six speed car out of the hole , all were early models with 3.23 gears or lower, I even had one that had 2.73 in the rear on a M6. That car was difficult to get out of the hole, but I still managed a 2.0 60' on that car. If you run a stock clutch that is in GOOD condition, you can pretty much get any M6 car out of the hole fine. If you run an aftermarket clutch, you will have harder time unless you have a stronger rear end to take the added force if the clutch is aggressive like mine upon engaging.
You can control where you launch from, and slip the clutch (if it's stock.) It is all in the Driver's ability to take control of their car.
You can control where you launch from, and slip the clutch (if it's stock.) It is all in the Driver's ability to take control of their car.
12-21-2003, 10:58 PM
#14
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The thing you have to remember is those "early model" cars with the 3.23 rearend also had a t56 with different gear ratios to compensate. Ina 95 he has the gear ratios which are suppose to be paired with 3.42's. I understand your point, buy you would have to be blind not to see that he would benefit from better gearing. I don't question that the car is drivable and raceable, but IMO the car would be much easier to drive with a good gear ratio.
12-21-2003, 11:04 PM
#15
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I do understand where you are coming from, I have gone over this in previous replys. and what different years came with different ratios in the rear end and tranny.
I have driven QUITE a few six speed cars, mostly LT1's and two LS1 cars. 75% were stock, 25% are modified, and when I say modified, not bolt ons, motor / rear/ serious work.
I don't doubt him liking a bigger gear, I just recommend a 3.73 at max. Anything bigger he will have problems on the street, and track unless he runs a BFG drag radial all the time.
I just recommend a slight increase in gears, and a set of real tires at the track. If I am wrong my friend, then obviously all my knowledge in this subject is garbage to you.
I have driven QUITE a few six speed cars, mostly LT1's and two LS1 cars. 75% were stock, 25% are modified, and when I say modified, not bolt ons, motor / rear/ serious work.
I don't doubt him liking a bigger gear, I just recommend a 3.73 at max. Anything bigger he will have problems on the street, and track unless he runs a BFG drag radial all the time.
I just recommend a slight increase in gears, and a set of real tires at the track. If I am wrong my friend, then obviously all my knowledge in this subject is garbage to you.