400rwhp N/A with...think I need a bigger cam
11-02-2003, 03:01 PM
#1
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400rwhp N/A with...think I need a bigger cam
Ok...Heres the deal. Ive been pissing with this engine project and Im close to finishing, finally. Pics can be seen here of some parts if you like:http://www.geocities.com/lotus_tt/ExtraCarparts.html
Anyhow, i got the xe224/230cam CM 612 springs, comp r lifters, hardened pushrods, 1.6 pro mag rr, ported heads and matched intake by CHRracingproducts.com with (2.02/1.60valves), in a forged 355 with approx. 11.1 compression, jethot LTs, borla, 6speed, etc...all the necessary parts.
I have been doing all kinds of post reading while i was waiting for my heads and powdercoated parts to come back(i already had bought the cam kit) and have noticed that there isnt anyone with 400rwhp with this cam(at least not that I have seen yet...380hp/390tq was the highest I seen, I question those numbers also). The average seems to be 35x-36x. That kind of depresses me. I dont want to go through this complete rebuilld like Im doing only to be at a mild bolt on LS1 level
...without my nitrous of course 
I dont want less than 400rwhp(well, ok...399 or so would be ok but not desired). So, what cam should I swap this for?I would like to be fairly streetable...but I dont drive more than a few thousand miles a year at most, so I could deal with a little roughness. It will also see frequent nitrous use. Ive seen some of the xe230/236 guys with 400+rwhp and the cc306...but they also seem to have kind of low max torque numbers compared to the hp they put out. Plus they both dont seem to have much to offer at the lower rpms. Emissions isnt really an issue anymore since I keep my car under 5000 miles a year(thank god for that loophole in the PA emission law). Lets hear some options that you 400+rwhp guys are are using.
Anyhow, i got the xe224/230cam CM 612 springs, comp r lifters, hardened pushrods, 1.6 pro mag rr, ported heads and matched intake by CHRracingproducts.com with (2.02/1.60valves), in a forged 355 with approx. 11.1 compression, jethot LTs, borla, 6speed, etc...all the necessary parts.
I have been doing all kinds of post reading while i was waiting for my heads and powdercoated parts to come back(i already had bought the cam kit) and have noticed that there isnt anyone with 400rwhp with this cam(at least not that I have seen yet...380hp/390tq was the highest I seen, I question those numbers also). The average seems to be 35x-36x. That kind of depresses me. I dont want to go through this complete rebuilld like Im doing only to be at a mild bolt on LS1 level
...without my nitrous of course I dont want less than 400rwhp(well, ok...399 or so would be ok but not desired). So, what cam should I swap this for?I would like to be fairly streetable...but I dont drive more than a few thousand miles a year at most, so I could deal with a little roughness. It will also see frequent nitrous use. Ive seen some of the xe230/236 guys with 400+rwhp and the cc306...but they also seem to have kind of low max torque numbers compared to the hp they put out. Plus they both dont seem to have much to offer at the lower rpms. Emissions isnt really an issue anymore since I keep my car under 5000 miles a year(thank god for that loophole in the PA emission law). Lets hear some options that you 400+rwhp guys are are using.
11-02-2003, 03:09 PM
#2
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that is a small cam. is it a 350? what kind of heads? with awesome heads/intake on a 383 you could see 400rwhp with perfect tuning but not much more.. does it have to pass emissions? if not i would call cmotorsports and get a 230/236 .600 lift cam you shuldnt have a problem making 400 at the wheels 350 or 383 with that cam and good heads. but you would need new springs too.
i just put on a 3" hooker ypipe. feels like i gained 15-20hp atleast! i had a 2.5" before. when i get on the dyno again and get fully tuned i think she'll do 420 or better.. i pulled alitttle on a stroker ls1 that dynoed 417/410. he didnt tell me that i know the guy who tuned his car
i think my cam is alittle big.. my next cam will be the something close to the 230/236 w/ .600+ lift.. shooting for 440-450rwhp
i just put on a 3" hooker ypipe. feels like i gained 15-20hp atleast! i had a 2.5" before. when i get on the dyno again and get fully tuned i think she'll do 420 or better.. i pulled alitttle on a stroker ls1 that dynoed 417/410. he didnt tell me that i know the guy who tuned his car
i think my cam is alittle big.. my next cam will be the something close to the 230/236 w/ .600+ lift.. shooting for 440-450rwhp
Last edited by MadMaxz28; 11-02-2003 at 03:15 PM.
11-02-2003, 03:37 PM
#5
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yeah i had that dilema too... I ordered some good heads and decided that my little cc305 220/230 cam would only let me hit 385wrhp if everything was perfect, long tubes, electric pump etc.
mainly because of the 220 intake duration.. so i decided to pick up a XE230/236.. that way i'll have a shot at 400wrhp.
mainly because of the 220 intake duration.. so i decided to pick up a XE230/236.. that way i'll have a shot at 400wrhp.
If you use nitrous a lot, get the same specced cam from another company on a 114LSA.
11-02-2003, 04:10 PM
#7
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Will a 230/236 with only .544" .554" lift....be enough to get about 400rwhp? I would like to use a cam within the lift of the 612KCM springs from Cmotorsports.com which i think are good to .600lift..and I dont want to run .00x away from it like some people do.
Is it possible to achieve this 400rwhp goal with a lower lift 230/236cam?
Also...I seen Cmoto has this cam:
TN-233XL 233/239 duration, .569"/.577", 112lsa
Do you guys think this cam is capable of my goal?
I think im going to call Cmotorsports(where my kit cam from) tomorrow and see what they have to say and to see If I can somehow switch up my cam with a bigger one. I just need to decide on lift and if I can use my 612springs or not. If I have too, I can get different springs...but dont really want too.
Is it possible to achieve this 400rwhp goal with a lower lift 230/236cam?
Also...I seen Cmoto has this cam:
TN-233XL 233/239 duration, .569"/.577", 112lsa
Do you guys think this cam is capable of my goal?
I think im going to call Cmotorsports(where my kit cam from) tomorrow and see what they have to say and to see If I can somehow switch up my cam with a bigger one. I just need to decide on lift and if I can use my 612springs or not. If I have too, I can get different springs...but dont really want too.
Last edited by N2OpwrdTA; 11-02-2003 at 04:33 PM.
11-02-2003, 04:38 PM
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you shouldnt have a problem making your goal with the lower lift 230/236 but those springs might work with the 230/236 duration, .598"/.608", 112lsa. or maybe you can trade... are the springs already on the heads? if they are and thats why you dont wanna swap and you dont have to worry about emissions i like the 233/239 duration, .569"/.577", 112lsa that would work with those springs and youll prolly see 410+ maybe 420 with everything tuned right.
like i said i have the 236/242 and its alittle big but totally driveable. my car is my daily driver. i only have a slight cam serge at 1500 rpm. i think the 233/239 cam would be perfect for a 383. it is a stroker right? if its a 350 stick with the 230/236
like i said i have the 236/242 and its alittle big but totally driveable. my car is my daily driver. i only have a slight cam serge at 1500 rpm. i think the 233/239 cam would be perfect for a 383. it is a stroker right? if its a 350 stick with the 230/236
Last edited by MadMaxz28; 11-02-2003 at 04:42 PM.
11-02-2003, 04:41 PM
#9
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I went with Combo's 233/239 with hopes of 400+ RWHP. I dont have everything back together yet though.
With all the bolt ons, tuning, LTs I think its achievable. That should be a streetable cam for your needs as well.
With all the bolt ons, tuning, LTs I think its achievable. That should be a streetable cam for your needs as well.
11-02-2003, 05:29 PM
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Nope, its not a stroker... My next motor will be a STSturbo (i like that setup) powered 396. Thats the future for my old shortblock. Hopefully Ill have that setup ready in the very end of next year or beg of 2005(wow, that seems long time from now! Already going broke with this buildup anyhow.
My new/current shortblock is a forged 355, speed pro powerforged pistons, king bearings, moly coated rings, cr1 forged rods, comp r lifters, combo motorsports 612 springs, comp hardened pushrods, 1.6pro mag rr, arp rod bolts, electric h2o pump, cloyes true dbl roller timing chain, jethot longtubes, 3"hooker ypipe(no cats), borla(no plate)...all the normal mods that accompany a fully built LT1. I have changed my performance parts selection many parts already since ripping the beast apart and still have not found a combo Im happy enough with to put in...but were working on that.
Yeah, the springs are in the head and installed with the larger valves. CHRracingproducts.com installed them and did everything(but the valve job, they sent that out). But they are brand new and can easily be removed and swapped, IF I have too. If you guys(and combo) thinks its possible with the springs I have...then I would much rather just use them.
I think I might try the 233/239 112lsa if itll fit within my spring limits. Do any of you know the limits of the 612 springs off the top of your head? If not, no problem....im calling combo tomorrow anyhow. Does anyhow now how this cam idles? Im thinking itll be similar to the I dont mind lopey, rough, etc...but I dont want it to so hardcore that the car wants to stall, or its vibrating my ttops loose.etc.
My next motor will be a STSturbo (i like that setup) powered 396. Thats the future for my old shortblock. Hopefully Ill have that setup ready in the very end of next year or beg of 2005(wow, that seems long time from now! Already going broke with this buildup anyhow.My new/current shortblock is a forged 355, speed pro powerforged pistons, king bearings, moly coated rings, cr1 forged rods, comp r lifters, combo motorsports 612 springs, comp hardened pushrods, 1.6pro mag rr, arp rod bolts, electric h2o pump, cloyes true dbl roller timing chain, jethot longtubes, 3"hooker ypipe(no cats), borla(no plate)...all the normal mods that accompany a fully built LT1. I have changed my performance parts selection many parts already since ripping the beast apart and still have not found a combo Im happy enough with to put in...but were working on that.
Yeah, the springs are in the head and installed with the larger valves. CHRracingproducts.com installed them and did everything(but the valve job, they sent that out). But they are brand new and can easily be removed and swapped, IF I have too. If you guys(and combo) thinks its possible with the springs I have...then I would much rather just use them.
I think I might try the 233/239 112lsa if itll fit within my spring limits. Do any of you know the limits of the 612 springs off the top of your head? If not, no problem....im calling combo tomorrow anyhow. Does anyhow now how this cam idles? Im thinking itll be similar to the I dont mind lopey, rough, etc...but I dont want it to so hardcore that the car wants to stall, or its vibrating my ttops loose.etc.
Last edited by N2OpwrdTA; 11-02-2003 at 05:34 PM.
11-02-2003, 08:07 PM
#11
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im thinking if you cant use the .600 lift 230/236 get the 233/239 ive seen guys funning the GM847 in stock blocks with 400rwhp and they lioke it. its only alittle more duration but alittle less lift. so i think the 233/239 would be good in your setup. and why not just slap aturbo the 355.
11-02-2003, 08:53 PM
#12
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I built the 355 to be fairly high compression(compared to real forced induction cars needs) and intended on it being a good N/A performer as well as decent N2O performer(i would favor the N/A performace). Also, I dont have enough cash to fund the turbo setup, another forged block but wayyy bigger, etc.. at this time and the STSturbo guys dont have a setup fabricated to work with long tube headers yet. Plus I just spent around6k on my current mod fest. My spending funds are low for the time being. I need more time to save up some cash again.
Ill let you guys know what combo says tomorrow and what im going to do. How high do you think the 233/239 will rev? I dont want to be reving to 7000rpms. Would prefer no higher than 6500rpm...at the most.
Ill let you guys know what combo says tomorrow and what im going to do. How high do you think the 233/239 will rev? I dont want to be reving to 7000rpms. Would prefer no higher than 6500rpm...at the most.
11-02-2003, 09:14 PM
#13
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I just placed my camshaft order with combination motorsports and after talking with them I decided to go with the 227/233, 560/569 XE cam. From talking with them I think the cam should perform really well, but you never really know until you actually try something. They told me that they had sold several of this camshaft within the past week and that the cars with it already installed were pulling to 6500 with it. Combo told me that this cam should be capable of putting down 400 in an M6 and I have no reason to doubt them. Pretty soon I will know though. I will be putting my setup together this coming weekend and after I get it tuned I will be heading to the dyno to find out just what this cam will put down. I also thought about going with the 233/239, but after talking with combo the 227/233 seemed to be the cam that better suited my application.
11-03-2003, 02:50 PM
#14
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Ok...I talked to combo today for a while. They said the reatiners on the springs will hit before the springs bind up. He said That the 230/236 .544" .555" 112lsa , 233/239 .569" .577" 112lsa, or 227/233 .560" .569" 112lsa...would all be ok for those springs no problem. He did say that for any cam that is closer to .600 lift then the above cams...that you should get better springs(but im not interested in that anyhow)
However, after talking to combo and reading tons of posts the last few nights...I have decided that the 230/236 just doesnt have enough torque for me. I love tq more than hp. I would like an easy 400rwhp, but not at the expsense of my torque. And its average hp/tq numbers are not that much greater(if at all) compared to even my current 224/230 cam can make. They also said its possible for the 224/230 to get 400rwhp with good ported heads/intake...which I have(and a 6speed and still keep the torque you want.
Combo also said(like I read on another post that was said by "whontime") that they highly recommend the 227/233 if I want a little more hp out of it. They said they put it on a stock head, intake LT1 and it put down 360rwhp and just as much torque. With good heads/intake they said 400 is definently possible(in my 6speed). They also said, that they compared it to a 230/236 and it was the better performer of the two(due to the torque advantage it has). It has just as much torque as the 224/230 but with a bit more hp. They said it acts and idles nearly the same as the 224/230. And if you drove one then drove a car with the other the next day, you would not notice any difference in sound/idle. Im going to do some final researching and stuff...but I think tomorrow Im trading up just one level to the 227/233. I would like to go bigger(...cause isnt it always better
...but dont want to be spinning over 6500rpms. If combo says 400rwhp is possible, and my other speed shop said its possible...then hopefully, its possible. Ill let you all know when its up and running. Give me a few more weeks. Gotta switch some more parts again, lol.
Also, I bought my kit from them(Cmotorsports.com) a few weeks ago(on a GP). They are letting me return it for any cam I decide I want. AWESOME GUYS TO DEAL WITH! Later all.
However, after talking to combo and reading tons of posts the last few nights...I have decided that the 230/236 just doesnt have enough torque for me. I love tq more than hp. I would like an easy 400rwhp, but not at the expsense of my torque. And its average hp/tq numbers are not that much greater(if at all) compared to even my current 224/230 cam can make. They also said its possible for the 224/230 to get 400rwhp with good ported heads/intake...which I have(and a 6speed
and still keep the torque you want. Combo also said(like I read on another post that was said by "whontime") that they highly recommend the 227/233 if I want a little more hp out of it. They said they put it on a stock head, intake LT1 and it put down 360rwhp and just as much torque. With good heads/intake they said 400 is definently possible(in my 6speed). They also said, that they compared it to a 230/236 and it was the better performer of the two(due to the torque advantage it has). It has just as much torque as the 224/230 but with a bit more hp. They said it acts and idles nearly the same as the 224/230. And if you drove one then drove a car with the other the next day, you would not notice any difference in sound/idle. Im going to do some final researching and stuff...but I think tomorrow Im trading up just one level to the 227/233. I would like to go bigger(...cause isnt it always better
...but dont want to be spinning over 6500rpms. If combo says 400rwhp is possible, and my other speed shop said its possible...then hopefully, its possible. Ill let you all know when its up and running. Give me a few more weeks. Gotta switch some more parts again, lol.Also, I bought my kit from them(Cmotorsports.com) a few weeks ago(on a GP). They are letting me return it for any cam I decide I want. AWESOME GUYS TO DEAL WITH! Later all.
11-03-2003, 04:06 PM
#15
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sounds like a pretty good choice. you planning on n2o? maybe a 114lsa then. my car is a friggen torque monster! i think mine will do 420/420 or better with awesome tuning.
Last edited by MadMaxz28; 11-03-2003 at 04:12 PM.