AI200cc stock bottom end dyno results, 429rwhp with a miss
01-04-2008, 12:12 PM
#106
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
I ended up measuring 215/216 cc and Speed Demon had two ports measured and ended up at the same CC. He sent pics of the heads and had the cc written on them to confirm. Is there a thrird person that CC'd the intake ports?
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
01-04-2008, 12:17 PM
#107
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Ocala, Florida
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I gave up arguing with you awhile ago since it's obviously a lost cause. Here are the facts plain and simple...
I did NOT use the same pushrods as before.
Even though you you blame the guideplates as one of the culprits on my setup you still reccomend them to this day to your customers.
Even though you blame pushrod length as one of the culprits you still reccomend that pushrod length to this day to your customers.
The heads left your shop with a crack in the pushrod pinch that was not welded up
The heads left your shop with the bole holes broken through in the ports that go into the waterjacket unfixed.
Port dimensions varied by over .100" from port to port.
I had 2 different shops say the cracked guides were not from incorrect geomoetry and that they were from bad machine work and they were certain it was from broaching the guides to size. And you have yet to this day to tell me how you size your guides.
My LE2 heads actually slowed my car down over my old ~240 cfm heads. (118.3mph in 500' da with the heads before I sent them to you, 118.1mph after I got them back from you in -1000' d/a.)
And if bigger port volumes were benifitial I wouldn't have gained alot of lowend torque. I made over 360rwtq at 2800 RPM's with my new setup where as I didn't make 360rwtq until 4400-4500 RPM's with your heads. And an oilpan is not worth as much as a drysump and vacuum pump setup is worth.
And I got tuned by the same guy that tuned my car the last 4 setups I put on it so the tuning is the same.
Either way anyone that looks at the average results from either place could easily tell which place consistently puts out a better package.
I did NOT use the same pushrods as before.
Even though you you blame the guideplates as one of the culprits on my setup you still reccomend them to this day to your customers.
Even though you blame pushrod length as one of the culprits you still reccomend that pushrod length to this day to your customers.
The heads left your shop with a crack in the pushrod pinch that was not welded up
The heads left your shop with the bole holes broken through in the ports that go into the waterjacket unfixed.
Port dimensions varied by over .100" from port to port.
I had 2 different shops say the cracked guides were not from incorrect geomoetry and that they were from bad machine work and they were certain it was from broaching the guides to size. And you have yet to this day to tell me how you size your guides.
My LE2 heads actually slowed my car down over my old ~240 cfm heads. (118.3mph in 500' da with the heads before I sent them to you, 118.1mph after I got them back from you in -1000' d/a.)
And if bigger port volumes were benifitial I wouldn't have gained alot of lowend torque. I made over 360rwtq at 2800 RPM's with my new setup where as I didn't make 360rwtq until 4400-4500 RPM's with your heads. And an oilpan is not worth as much as a drysump and vacuum pump setup is worth.
And I got tuned by the same guy that tuned my car the last 4 setups I put on it so the tuning is the same. Either way anyone that looks at the average results from either place could easily tell which place consistently puts out a better package.
Looks like this set up is working real well for you.
Not sure if the AI cam is larger than the BRE 224 duration cam or not, only Speed Demon knows for sure.
You probably actually checked PR length and geometry this time as opposed to on the LE heads. You told me you just used the same PR's you had before and did not know why it would be different, I told you anytime you change valve length, head gasket thickness, valve job depth, etc, it will effect PR length and this is just assuming it was correct before the LE heads were installed. Since it was not checked before this, who knows how far was off even before the new heads.
You can see by the pic on your photo bucket that the rocker is sitting off to the side of the valve on the LE heads. Guides are not gonna last long like that, even with the correct PR length (that you did not have).
Just wanted to point out some variances in stories.
The 2 LE head intake ports measured where 215.x and 216.x cc although that # keeps growing as Speed Demon tells the story.
Somewhere between the new heads, new cam (not sure if it is larger than 224 duration or not), new oil pan, proper rocker/PR geometry and tuning, you were able to find 24 HP over the old set up.
Lloyd
Not sure if the AI cam is larger than the BRE 224 duration cam or not, only Speed Demon knows for sure.
You probably actually checked PR length and geometry this time as opposed to on the LE heads. You told me you just used the same PR's you had before and did not know why it would be different, I told you anytime you change valve length, head gasket thickness, valve job depth, etc, it will effect PR length and this is just assuming it was correct before the LE heads were installed. Since it was not checked before this, who knows how far was off even before the new heads.
You can see by the pic on your photo bucket that the rocker is sitting off to the side of the valve on the LE heads. Guides are not gonna last long like that, even with the correct PR length (that you did not have).
Just wanted to point out some variances in stories.
The 2 LE head intake ports measured where 215.x and 216.x cc although that # keeps growing as Speed Demon tells the story.
Somewhere between the new heads, new cam (not sure if it is larger than 224 duration or not), new oil pan, proper rocker/PR geometry and tuning, you were able to find 24 HP over the old set up.
Lloyd
01-04-2008, 12:20 PM
#108
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 3,245
I ended up measuring 215/216 cc and Speed Demon had two ports measured and ended up at the same CC. He sent pics of the heads and had the cc written on them to confirm. Is there a thrird person that CC'd the intake ports?
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
01-04-2008, 12:24 PM
#109
ahh. see there is some really important info that has repeatidly been left out of all these threads, at least its the first i have heard of it. and now it all makes sense. so in reality you gained hp over a set of heads that were butchered by someone else and then lloyd tried to fix em for ya. since you have no problem bashing lloyd care to tell us who did the first port job
01-04-2008, 12:37 PM
#111
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
well all I could do is offer to pay shipping to me and back to you ($120 out of my pocket) to CONFIRM what I already thought, the guides where destroyed in no time due to something you did. Some where fine and some were TOAST. Some rockers where sitting correct side to side and some where not. Just look at your photo bucket pics and you would see.
The guides where not installed with soem soft and some hard, the ones that wore where seeing some dramataic trauma (lack of oil, wrong PR length and/or rocker sitting off centered to valve tip). cvalves sitting off centerd is all you can see from the pic and that is obvious. As far as PR length and lack of oil, only you know that.
Speed Demon stated that the port work was worth 4 tenths and 4 MPH in another thread.
I am just stating that the story keeps changing.
Didn't check PR length/did check PR length.
Was 4 tenths/4 MPH faster, wasn't any faster.
It is only my guess but the shop/person to inspect the heads and find everything wrong was done by Eportworks was probably the same guy?shop that did the first portwork. Only Speed Demon knows for sure and as demonstrated time and time again, his word means very little.
The guides where not installed with soem soft and some hard, the ones that wore where seeing some dramataic trauma (lack of oil, wrong PR length and/or rocker sitting off centered to valve tip). cvalves sitting off centerd is all you can see from the pic and that is obvious. As far as PR length and lack of oil, only you know that.
Speed Demon stated that the port work was worth 4 tenths and 4 MPH in another thread.
I am just stating that the story keeps changing.
Didn't check PR length/did check PR length.
Was 4 tenths/4 MPH faster, wasn't any faster.
It is only my guess but the shop/person to inspect the heads and find everything wrong was done by Eportworks was probably the same guy?shop that did the first portwork. Only Speed Demon knows for sure and as demonstrated time and time again, his word means very little.
01-04-2008, 12:42 PM
#112
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
I asked to see the guide plates he was running (to see what guide plates showed wear and conmpare the the destroyed guides) but he declined and did not send any. He only said some where worn very bad and the PR dug into the guide plate on a few and some where fine. Kinda like his guides, some were worn BADLY and soem were fine.
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
Last edited by NightTrain66; 01-04-2008 at 12:47 PM.
01-04-2008, 01:03 PM
#114
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,193
I think it would be the only responsible choice as a moderator at this point as there has been no bashing or fighting at this point. While Ai vs LE threads may get out of hand and both sides may never see eye to eye, allowing for open discussion is the only way to get to a common ground.
01-04-2008, 01:10 PM
#115
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Jupiter (NPB), Fl
Posts: 3,852
I think it would be the only responsible choice as a moderator at this point as there has been no bashing or fighting at this point. While Ai vs LE threads may get out of hand and both sides may never see eye to eye, allowing for open discussion is the only way to get to a common ground.
01-04-2008, 01:13 PM
#116
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Davie, FL
Posts: 1,109
01-04-2008, 01:15 PM
#117
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
Just in case there are some that are new to Speed Demons car and the problems he has had in the past, here are some more conficting stories about the heads not gaining any power, etc.
looks like the LE2 heads were worth 30 HP over the previously ported heads and still had a high RPM miss at 5500-5800 and was able to hit 405 RWHP. No doubt the #'s would have been better if the curve did not have that dip and a miss up top. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=513207
your miss could have been the broken plug you mentioned in this thread. 405 RWHP with broken plug is not so bad. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=529205
looks like it was GM guide plates that wore. Guide plates only wear if the PR is forced against it to try and correct the geometry. If all is well, the guide plate will barely be used. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528930
not sure if the cam/lifters were hurting HP #'s but they could not be helping the #'s. I am glad you now understand rocker geometry and can have a stable valve trane at 5000-6800 RPM. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533397
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gains from ported heads.
Lloyd
looks like the LE2 heads were worth 30 HP over the previously ported heads and still had a high RPM miss at 5500-5800 and was able to hit 405 RWHP. No doubt the #'s would have been better if the curve did not have that dip and a miss up top. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=513207
your miss could have been the broken plug you mentioned in this thread. 405 RWHP with broken plug is not so bad. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=529205
looks like it was GM guide plates that wore. Guide plates only wear if the PR is forced against it to try and correct the geometry. If all is well, the guide plate will barely be used. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528930
not sure if the cam/lifters were hurting HP #'s but they could not be helping the #'s. I am glad you now understand rocker geometry and can have a stable valve trane at 5000-6800 RPM. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533397
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gains from ported heads.
Lloyd
Last edited by NightTrain66; 01-04-2008 at 01:32 PM.
01-04-2008, 01:19 PM
#118
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,193
I asked to see the guide plates he was running (to see what guide plates showed wear and conmpare the the destroyed guides) but he declined and did not send any. He only said some where worn very bad and the PR dug into the guide plate on a few and some where fine. Kinda like his guides, some were worn BADLY and soem were fine.
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
Using info from a guy who has been banned for being a professional scammer & has caused far more valvetrain problems than he’s solved isn’t a good argument. People realized years ago when he never had real examples of his “work” that he was just a kid pretending to be a professional.
Also that post was updated long after initally posted (6 days and right before he was banned?). I don't know what that is about.
Also post 14 doesn't take into account angle of the photographer. One picture shows valve marks with no rocker and one is a picture of the rocker covering that space which Bret presumes to know the placement of. Photographs at different times from different angles can be an easy out for someone trying to explain away thier failure to spec the correct parts or machine a head correctly. The failures are evidence enough.
And the "32" on the head is most definately the number of heads ported by Ai.
Good argument!
01-04-2008, 01:24 PM
#119
can you prove that? or are you just being a dick. dumb comments like that are what is going to get the thread locked
01-04-2008, 01:28 PM
#120
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
I doubt that AI has only ported 32 sets of heads or they would be starving, lol.
I just posted that for the pics of the obviously off centered rocker/valve tip and then the extent of the work done to get the geometry correct on the AI heads.
Post 4 and 14 on that thread (as well as ALL of the other threads) do have some good info for anyone reading this thread.
I just wanted more info given incase people are wanting to listen to some kid and his one sided story of the week. I have no reason to lie or imbelish any story and I am not changing any story or anything, I just want people to see how his story keeps changing so at some point there has to be a lie. That is why I posted threads with Speed Demon using his own words to show what I am talking about.
Some readers will be enlightened by this info and some will still have rebutles and not see things for what they are worth. These few people had their minds made up before reading this post, this thread or actually before logging on to the computer today at all.
Lloyd
I just posted that for the pics of the obviously off centered rocker/valve tip and then the extent of the work done to get the geometry correct on the AI heads.
Post 4 and 14 on that thread (as well as ALL of the other threads) do have some good info for anyone reading this thread.
I just wanted more info given incase people are wanting to listen to some kid and his one sided story of the week. I have no reason to lie or imbelish any story and I am not changing any story or anything, I just want people to see how his story keeps changing so at some point there has to be a lie. That is why I posted threads with Speed Demon using his own words to show what I am talking about.
Some readers will be enlightened by this info and some will still have rebutles and not see things for what they are worth. These few people had their minds made up before reading this post, this thread or actually before logging on to the computer today at all.
Lloyd