AI200cc stock bottom end dyno results, 429rwhp with a miss
#121
Just in case there are some that are new to Speed Demons car and the problems he has had in the past, here are some more conficting stories about the heads not gaining any power, etc.
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gaisn from ported heads.
Lloyd
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gaisn from ported heads.
Lloyd
Throwing his posting history out there during the time of the problem doesn't show anything. Multiple sources found the cause of the issue to be one thing (bad machining etc) and early in his prediciment he thought it was something totally different. That isn't his fault, it is hind sight.
#122
#123
This thread is not about him or his history, it is about one persons results with a product. I would love to go into it further, but this is neither the time nor the place.
#124
For the Bret issue, please see JasonD's post in regard to the matter.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=568334
Let's not carry it any further than that in this thread.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=568334
Let's not carry it any further than that in this thread.
#125
Thought I had read every thread detailing sd's ongoing misadventures and this is the first I have seen of it as well.
#126
I can tell you guys my results and take them as you will, Lloyd ported my first set of heads for me back in 2003 or so and I have only gone faster since with his portwork, which picked my car from 12.00@113mph (stock heads) to 11.61@117mph, same heads, same valves, same cam (LE1), same everything. I removed the heads sent them to Lloyd then reinstalled the heads and ran .4 tenths faster and 4mph on the first nite out. I then sprayed 150HP n2o and broke some main bearing caps (detonation) so I never got to really dial in that setup that would have easily run 11.40's with some tweaking. vbut i went with some LE2's and bigger cam 11.20@120mph and on n2o 10.20@132mph So his porting definately makes HP and stuff breaks in the high performance world no matter who you are. Later Clint
#127
ahh. see there is some really important info that has repeatidly been left out of all these threads, at least its the first i have heard of it. and now it all makes sense. so in reality you gained hp over a set of heads that were butchered by someone else and then lloyd tried to fix em for ya. since you have no problem bashing lloyd care to tell us who did the first port job
#128
This post where he gives his before/after numbers should be a giveaway that work was not started on a "stock" head.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
On a side note, if it was felt the heads were not good enough to be ported to a good result, I don't think they should have been used and Rob should have been told to look for an untouched casting. Just IMO.
This is not a Lloyd bash as I obviously run his product and my car has performed well with it.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
On a side note, if it was felt the heads were not good enough to be ported to a good result, I don't think they should have been used and Rob should have been told to look for an untouched casting. Just IMO.
This is not a Lloyd bash as I obviously run his product and my car has performed well with it.
#129
This post where he gives his before/after numbers should be a giveaway that work was not started on a "stock" head.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
.
Most people who have followed the saga as it has unfolded probably didn't go back to read all the relevant threads that SD posted prior to having problems.
#130
This post where he gives his before/after numbers should be a giveaway that work was not started on a "stock" head.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
On a side note, if it was felt the heads were not good enough to be ported to a good result, I don't think they should have been used and Rob should have been told to look for an untouched casting. Just IMO.
This is not a Lloyd bash as I obviously run his product and my car has performed well with it.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=510218
On a side note, if it was felt the heads were not good enough to be ported to a good result, I don't think they should have been used and Rob should have been told to look for an untouched casting. Just IMO.
This is not a Lloyd bash as I obviously run his product and my car has performed well with it.
Now how do you go from mild ported (bowl work) to 218cc? If the runner was say 19Xcc from the previous porter, there should have been plenty of room to get to the desired 205cc. Is this were CNC porting shows its true benefit? A cnc machine would never hog out a port to 217.X on one and 216.X on another.
#131
the cnc would have done the same thing lloyd did, and it still would have turned out the same due to the previous porting in areas that neither would have touched
it was already posted, but you obviously only read what you want
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
Last edited by dangalla; 01-04-2008 at 03:25 PM.
#132
tireburnin, do you read the stuff you type? Do you know how a cnc machine works? Have you ever heard of altering some of the ports that would be lacking in the first place? And granted, not that this would apply in all cases.
A cnc head is nothing more than a copy. Oh wait, I'm off by
1 cc, let me go back and fix that.
A cnc head is nothing more than a copy. Oh wait, I'm off by
1 cc, let me go back and fix that.
#133
I ended up measuring 215/216 cc and Speed Demon had two ports measured and ended up at the same CC. He sent pics of the heads and had the cc written on them to confirm. Is there a thrird person that CC'd the intake ports?
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
When dealing with heads that have been ported before being sent to me (like Speed Demons), there are sometimes areas that have more material removed than I remove (Gasket Matching, far side of bowl next to guide closest to ex. port, etc) and so that is just dead space and doesn't help performance, it hurts.
The average casting will end up around 205cc as longa s these areas have not been butchered before sending them to me but if we have a well centered casting with very little core shift and we can get a lil bigger measurement in the hot areas that need the air to slow down (over short side, at PR pinch, etc) than we can take advantage of that. The 561 castings and castings with more core shift and that are not as well centered will end up at 205 cc or so to keep the se areas safe.
Removing more material from the slow moving areas like the gasket area, you will not help any and just make the slow air move even slower. Certain areas are made the same size in the port and the extra material is removed from the fast areas to make the air speed more equal through out the port.
Lloyd
ahh. see there is some really important info that has repeatidly been left out of all these threads, at least its the first i have heard of it. and now it all makes sense. so in reality you gained hp over a set of heads that were butchered by someone else and then lloyd tried to fix em for ya. since you have no problem bashing lloyd care to tell us who did the first port job
well all I could do is offer to pay shipping to me and back to you ($120 out of my pocket) to CONFIRM what I already thought, the guides where destroyed in no time due to something you did. Some where fine and some were TOAST. Some rockers where sitting correct side to side and some where not. Just look at your photo bucket pics and you would see.
The guides where not installed with soem soft and some hard, the ones that wore where seeing some dramataic trauma (lack of oil, wrong PR length and/or rocker sitting off centered to valve tip). cvalves sitting off centerd is all you can see from the pic and that is obvious. As far as PR length and lack of oil, only you know that.
Speed Demon stated that the port work was worth 4 tenths and 4 MPH in another thread.
I am just stating that the story keeps changing.
Didn't check PR length/did check PR length.
Was 4 tenths/4 MPH faster, wasn't any faster.
It is only my guess but the shop/person to inspect the heads and find everything wrong was done by Eportworks was probably the same guy?shop that did the first portwork. Only Speed Demon knows for sure and as demonstrated time and time again, his word means very little.
The guides where not installed with soem soft and some hard, the ones that wore where seeing some dramataic trauma (lack of oil, wrong PR length and/or rocker sitting off centered to valve tip). cvalves sitting off centerd is all you can see from the pic and that is obvious. As far as PR length and lack of oil, only you know that.
Speed Demon stated that the port work was worth 4 tenths and 4 MPH in another thread.
I am just stating that the story keeps changing.
Didn't check PR length/did check PR length.
Was 4 tenths/4 MPH faster, wasn't any faster.
It is only my guess but the shop/person to inspect the heads and find everything wrong was done by Eportworks was probably the same guy?shop that did the first portwork. Only Speed Demon knows for sure and as demonstrated time and time again, his word means very little.
I asked to see the guide plates he was running (to see what guide plates showed wear and conmpare the the destroyed guides) but he declined and did not send any. He only said some where worn very bad and the PR dug into the guide plate on a few and some where fine. Kinda like his guides, some were worn BADLY and soem were fine.
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
I am guessing they were the GM guide plates to be worn at all.
A new set of Trick Flow guide plates were sold with the heads and I am not sure what happened to the old guide plates.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...ghlight=guides
post # 4 and 14 will explain alot on this matter.
Lloyd
Just in case there are some that are new to Speed Demons car and the problems he has had in the past, here are some more conficting stories about the heads not gaining any power, etc.
looks like the LE2 heads were worth 30 HP over the previously ported heads and still had a high RPM miss at 5500-5800 and was able to hit 405 RWHP. No doubt the #'s would have been better if the curve did not have that dip and a miss up top. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=513207
your miss could have been the broken plug you mentioned in this thread. 405 RWHP with broken plug is not so bad. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=529205
looks like it was GM guide plates that wore. Guide plates only wear if the PR is forced against it to try and correct the geometry. If all is well, the guide plate will barely be used. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528930
not sure if the cam/lifters were hurting HP #'s but they could not be helping the #'s. I am glad you now understand rocker geometry and can have a stable valve trane at 5000-6800 RPM. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533397
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gains from ported heads.
Lloyd
looks like the LE2 heads were worth 30 HP over the previously ported heads and still had a high RPM miss at 5500-5800 and was able to hit 405 RWHP. No doubt the #'s would have been better if the curve did not have that dip and a miss up top. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=513207
your miss could have been the broken plug you mentioned in this thread. 405 RWHP with broken plug is not so bad. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=529205
looks like it was GM guide plates that wore. Guide plates only wear if the PR is forced against it to try and correct the geometry. If all is well, the guide plate will barely be used. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528930
not sure if the cam/lifters were hurting HP #'s but they could not be helping the #'s. I am glad you now understand rocker geometry and can have a stable valve trane at 5000-6800 RPM. Correcting rocker geometry and PR length would have helped also.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533397
There is some good reading material about how the story changes week to week and month to month about his problems and gains from ported heads.
Lloyd
#134
I never hid the fact that they were previously ported. I just never made it a priority to point it out since Lloyd told me it would have zero affect on the final outcome of the LE2 heads.
#135
Just out of curiosity Lloyd, what is your excuse that the vavlespring installed height varied from 1.75-1.80" on your LE2 heads when I checked it? Shouldn't it all be installed at the same height, expecially since the cam I was running had the most aggressive hydrolic roller lobes comp sells? Even more aggressive than the LSK LSx lobes that bret bashes and the XFI lobes that he also bashes since they are so "aggressive"? My 224 cam had more duration at .200" lift than the cc306 by almost 10 degrees.
I guess I was lucky that I pulled the motor apart before the lobe started coming apart. The valvefloat only took out the rollers on a few of my lifters... I've also gotten numerous PM's from members on this board since they are having similar problems.
I guess I was lucky that I pulled the motor apart before the lobe started coming apart. The valvefloat only took out the rollers on a few of my lifters... I've also gotten numerous PM's from members on this board since they are having similar problems.
Last edited by speed_demon24; 01-04-2008 at 04:11 PM.