Mindgame

You do much bracket racing?
.1-.2 isn't going to mean as much as running consistent with your dial-in. That's where the trophies are at.

-Mindgame

HM Murdock

You are absolutely right. THer e are some in the 10's. But most people who are in it for fun, to be fast, and to just beat their friends, will do it, and see a gain.

And you are right. Last night, I based my numbers on too many assumptions.

But my stance is still the same.

You will see a gain with a 52mm TB and programming or MAFt on a stock LT1. Period.

And I never said I was a guru, I said I was a student. Huge difference.

I freely admit when I was wrong, and physics calculations and alchohol do not mix.



But he would still see a gain. Even the engine builder said so. Last I checked, a gain is a gain. No matter how flawed my numberes were.

HM Murdock

Not once in my life. But I do drive an A4. Once I gain a .1 or .2, I have it. Also, since I can't really control what gear my car shifts too, I like making more power accross the board. My big to do was that people thought HP and Torque were not related.

Mindgame

It's all good.

Just keep in mind that we're all here for the same reason. I don't know alot of the specific stuff on these cars so I'm here to learn and help when I can. That's what it's all about and we should all remain civil with each other.
Not to be a hypocrite but I'm trying to take my own advice as I've blown up at people a few more times than I should have. Should be fun right? Gotta keep that in mind.

Later,
Mg

HM Murdock

Absolutely...My main point, is that a TB with proper PCM tuning will not cause power loss, quite the contrary. By itself, I have no doubt it would cause some serious KR at high RPMS du to a lean condtion, which I was trying to say is not a "too much air" problem more than it is a "lack of fuel" problem.

I know .1 or .2 or even a third isn't much, but it is a positive gain. I know it should be fun...I would rather be proved wrong on some physics problem and learn from it, rather than have all the right answers all the time. The physics 101 remark was a lousy remark. But it holds true, if you don't know that HP is dependent on torque, then you should at least be willing to learn it.



As my sig states, it isn't the people who can't understand that bug me, it's the ones that refuse to understand.

I will always hope to be humiliated by someone who knows more than I, for if there is no one who knows more than me, then woe is me.



I can learn from my mistakes. Next time I use Newtonian Physics, I will triple check my numbers first, and remember the first rule of scientific method:

Never assume.


But also, the same should hold true in the reverse. If people see a gain...And there are several, including myself...

TheHeadFL

Read up on exhaust systems. Obviously 4" pipes flow more than 3" pipes, but to even suggest that a mild cammed LT1 or hardly an LT1 for that matter needs 4" collectors is just...

Obviously backpressure is bad, but what we need is a set diameter and length. A good set of headers not only have zero backpressure, they also help to create a vacuum through eduction. High velocity air creates low pressure behind it. There is so much more to an exhaust system than opening up every little bit you can. Even length plays a part. Longer primary tubes creates more low end torque due to the longer pulse wave from the exhaust at low RPMs. Just slapping on a 4" catback, 4" collector, and 4" intermediate pipe is probably going to lose you a ton of torque in the low-mid ranges.

GreenbeanZ28

I ought to mention maybe that my .2 tenths and 2 mph gain were with the stock computer. But I did play with the TPS to get it to read WOT sooner.

jomo_eng

Please explain so are we now saying that we can get .2 by installing a TB. So .2 is worth about, what 20hp. I haven't seen anyone get those kind of gains on a stock car with the stock program bhy just adding a TB. Now I would agree installing a TB and progamming the computer is worth about .1 to .2. But then again just progamming the computer with something better than stock is worth those kind of gains. I still would have to say that just a TB is worth 2 to 3 hp. So is it worth $200-$400 for a .7-1% increase in HP over stock. I just think that any significant gains made when installing a TB seem to come with other mods and those other mods could probably be responsible for the significance of the gain, and could have been done with out the TB. I can't see a point in buying a TB until you have done everything else and just want that last little bit out of your car. For the money spent on a new Tb you can get some 1.6 RR or Cam, or shorty headers, or an underdrive pulley kit that would show more improvement than a TB.

Just my .02,
Later,
Jomo

EddieP

It's probably good for more than the 2-3 hp that you estimate... WS6.com picked up ~2.5 peak hp and 5+ average rear wheel horsepower just by installing an airfoil in the stocker, so I'd wager that there is certainly some power to be gained with a bigger TB.

You mention 1.6 rockers as a better alternative, but during an austin f-body dyno day one of our members upgraded to 1.6 pro magnum rockers in the parking lot after doing an intial baseline pull. The results? 0.5 hp gain, -1.5 torque loss.

I might head over to MTI soon and do two or three pulls with the stock TB + air foil, a 52mm and 58mm TB. If I paid for TB gaskets, would anyone here in Houston want to meet me at MTI with their 52mm or 58mm TB? I'd like to make pulls with all three sizes, if possible.

96z

If you could Eddie that would be fantastic. I just dont understand how a couple posts by Murdock using physic can dispute trial and error and experince by many board members.

Id rather have proof than therory, hopefully Eddie will report back with that.

HM Murdock

You know what, I am done. This is getting ridiculous. I said, very specifically, not all engines will respond in the same manner. Do all engines make exactly the same HP mod for mod? Do all engines flow exactly the same amount of air? No.

I wish this thread would die now. I never said you would see a peak gain with just a TB. I said with programming, or at least a MAFT. Read the posts before discounting them. Sheesh. I at least read your points of views and reply to them. I never said you would see a peak gain. I said the torque curve would be better at higher RPM's.


I personally did a 52mm and a MAFT, tuned it on the dyno with wideband o2. It gained 9rwhp over stock. 10lbs ft.

Is that what you need?

Dyno proof?

You don't race anyone on the dyno. Do the mods(plural) then go to the damn track. Consistantly better ET's. I knocked some time off my 1/8 qith ease with a 52mm and maft. Note, not just 52mm TB, but WITH A MAFT.

Why do you doubt that our engines can't use more than 660CFM?

Oh well. I give up. Some people ain't ever gonna get it.

BTW, I have been on F-body message boards and sites since some of you were in grade school. I have seen MANY dyno sheets with just a ported TB and MAFT where they gained HP, and the TQ curve was nicely improved. But hey, be a hater. No biggie.

I am outta this thread for good.

This thread has served it's purpose. Now time for an image to help it on it's way.



Peace out.

joeSS97

No,keep the stocker. Save for some head work.

Bersaglieri

So now that the kittens are cats do they still die if I post? Sorry just never seen a pic loaded into a post.

-Dustin-

SS MPSTR

Benefits of the new server.

Bersaglieri

Nice

-Dustin-