Co2 cooled throttle body?
12-14-2006, 05:23 PM
#1
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Co2 cooled throttle body?
A buddy of mine told me that one of the boys where he was from was running co2 through his throttle body to keep it cool. So i went back one night whith him from college to see it. He had done the throttle body bypass and had a paintball co2 tank in the hatch of his car and it was hooked up like nitrous and at the press of a button it wold spray co2 into the coolant passage of the car.Well we didnt have a scanner at the time so cold read the intake temps. But after a while of driving the tb was cool to the touch just after just a couple seconds of spraying it. Would there be any gains in this? What kins of effects could this have on the motor? Good/Bad? I know it would probally cool the intake charge but would it be enough to do anything and cool it warp or hurt the tb? He said he had been running ti like this for over 6 months and said it wasnt a huge gain in SOTP gains but it was enough to tell.
12-14-2006, 06:26 PM
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Worthless. You might notice a very slight gain going from a heated TB to a CO2 cooled one. But I doubt you'd notice anything If you were just cooling one that had already been disconnected. Besides...For the C)2 to have any cooling effect at all, it would have to remain a liquid all the way to the TB. With 15 foot of line between the bottle and the TB that will never happen.
To keep up the gain you'd have to keep hitting it every minute or so. It will also have very minimal cooling effect on the intake air and even worse could cause ice to build up on the throttle blades.
To keep up the gain you'd have to keep hitting it every minute or so. It will also have very minimal cooling effect on the intake air and even worse could cause ice to build up on the throttle blades.
12-15-2006, 07:01 AM
#4
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We see a gain going from 180 degree coolant in the TB to ambient air let us call that a 110 degree difference on an average day. Now water carries and transfers A LOT of heat. Ever pickup a block of dry ice?? despite being over 100 degrees below zero you can touch it and move it around with bare skin. Based on that experience without looking into the science any further I am going to say CO2 is nowhere near as efficient at transferring heat as water is and liquid CO2 is like -85F so it is a 155 degree difference but if I am right and it transfers heat less efficiently let us say it will gain you the same as the TB bypass did which is documented at 6rwhp, BUT you added the weight of the CO2 equipment. Not a bad idea but in reality does not work well enough to bother with. Now if you use a more efficient heat exchanger than the TB and you have high intake air temps like oh say from boosting then things change.
12-15-2006, 07:34 AM
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kinda pointless to post this unless there is some sort of evidence to support the "SOTP" claim.
12-15-2006, 08:12 AM
#7
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Handling Dry Ice
Due to its extremely cold temperature (-78.5oC, or -109.3oF), dry ice can cause damage to the skin if handled. Use tongs or insulating gloves when handling dry ice. It is also important when crushing or grinding the solid not to get any of the dust into your eyes. Wear protective goggles.
Oh yeah, the original post! LOL It's not nearly cold enough to make a worthwhile difference.
Peace,
Mike
BTW that bit of information was found here...
http://www.west.net/~science/co2.htm
12-15-2006, 09:28 AM
#8
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CO2 is a much better coolant than water. CO2 cools efficiently because it flashes from a liquid to a vapor. It absorbs 245 BTU/LB (latent heat of vaporization) when it changes from a liquid to a gas. Water absorbs 1.0 BTU/LB for every degree F it gains.
You put the control valve right at the throttle body, and it flashes as it enters the TB.
The issue is simply how much heat transfer can occur between the limited surface area of supercooled metal of the throttle body, and air that is moving through the throttle body at more than 200 feet per second at peak air flow. There will definitely be cooling, but it will be limited.
NHRA Section 16 - General Regulations, 1:5 FUEL SYSTEMS, Fuel/Air:
You put the control valve right at the throttle body, and it flashes as it enters the TB.
The issue is simply how much heat transfer can occur between the limited surface area of supercooled metal of the throttle body, and air that is moving through the throttle body at more than 200 feet per second at peak air flow. There will definitely be cooling, but it will be limited.
NHRA Section 16 - General Regulations, 1:5 FUEL SYSTEMS, Fuel/Air:
.... Ambient-temperature air only; cooling or otherwise changing the conditions of the intake air is prohibited. Spraying of intake with any artificial spray of coolant is prohibited."
12-15-2006, 10:27 AM
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I have handled dry ice bare handed, not held onto it or anything but enough to move it around a little. Long as your hands are dry you are fine.
I think Fred offered some good info on what it takes to go from liquid to gas which needs to be pointed out, we are talking about going liquid to gas, takes a whole lot more than 1BTU to make steam from water but it occurs at a temp that will not help us here.
Like I said use a better heat exchanger than the TB and things like high intake temps from boost and all of a sudden this can work but just spraying through the TB is not going to be worthwhile.
I think Fred offered some good info on what it takes to go from liquid to gas which needs to be pointed out, we are talking about going liquid to gas, takes a whole lot more than 1BTU to make steam from water but it occurs at a temp that will not help us here.
Like I said use a better heat exchanger than the TB and things like high intake temps from boost and all of a sudden this can work but just spraying through the TB is not going to be worthwhile.
12-15-2006, 11:26 AM
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12-15-2006, 12:11 PM
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12-15-2006, 12:31 PM
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they make kits for turbo'd cars called cryo-kits or something along those lines. when i had my honda, i had a cryo kit, it was this ring that goes around the intercooler to spray it down to get stuff even colder, and there were benefits from it. How much, its hard to say since it depends on the car.
12-15-2006, 01:39 PM
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they make kits for turbo'd cars called cryo-kits or something along those lines. when i had my honda, i had a cryo kit, it was this ring that goes around the intercooler to spray it down to get stuff even colder, and there were benefits from it. How much, its hard to say since it depends on the car.
I don't think any of us are really questioning wether CO2 can provide signifigant cooling what is being argued is it's ability to do so through the TB.
12-15-2006, 11:06 PM
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#1 for the love of god please do not handle dry ice bare handed! If you don't know why you shouldn't then go back to chemistry 101
#2 the throttle body isn't really big enough to cool the incoming air for any gains.
#3 for all the weight to put in a CO2 bottle, plumbing and valves it would likely make the car slower...
Just my 2 cents
#2 the throttle body isn't really big enough to cool the incoming air for any gains.
#3 for all the weight to put in a CO2 bottle, plumbing and valves it would likely make the car slower...
Just my 2 cents
12-16-2006, 09:35 AM
#15
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Repeated prolonged exposure to used engine oil is known to cause cancer too so don't ever gat any on your hands.
Like I said breifly touching dry ice with dry hands is fine I speak from experiance as in having actually done it. When I bought it I was so worried I brought my welding gloves and the guy who sold it to me almost laughed.
I would not go holding onto it for 20 seconds or anything like that.
My experiance lead me to believe it is sort of like the ceramic mug you put your cofee in, while it is near the same temp as the coffe you can touch it, stick your finger directly in the coffe and you get burned. Has to do with how well materilals transfer heat the water which is 99.5% of the coffee transfers heat VERY well, ceramic is much more of an insulator.
I am not saying Fred was wrong in his posts about the energy CO2 requires to boil from liquid to gas, that is just another part of the equasion.
Like I said breifly touching dry ice with dry hands is fine I speak from experiance as in having actually done it. When I bought it I was so worried I brought my welding gloves and the guy who sold it to me almost laughed.
I would not go holding onto it for 20 seconds or anything like that.
My experiance lead me to believe it is sort of like the ceramic mug you put your cofee in, while it is near the same temp as the coffe you can touch it, stick your finger directly in the coffe and you get burned. Has to do with how well materilals transfer heat the water which is 99.5% of the coffee transfers heat VERY well, ceramic is much more of an insulator.
I am not saying Fred was wrong in his posts about the energy CO2 requires to boil from liquid to gas, that is just another part of the equasion.