NightTrain66

yea, you know me . . . . . . a real trouble maker

I can ASSURE you that the small bit of "bashing" here has been delt towards me many times over in previous posts. I had not considered it "bashing" until you put that label on it here. I have no problem with any of the comments made toward me and do not see whay anyone would have a problem with anything here.

I am not one to "toot my own horn". I am a very modest guy that is just earning a living and anyone that has met me or dealt with me can confirm this. I spend alot of time on the phone helping people out and getting them the best running car for what they wanna spend. I have done heads for all types of cars that run VERY fast. Instead of listing all of them or any of them, I just focus on the LT1 community and a few of these web sites. Obviously you will not see some of my faster customers on here but I am still not gonna mention them. Who cares how fast they are? The people on this site just wanna know how fast they can get their LT1 with the $$$ they have got to spend.

Lloyd Elliott
972-617-5671
Eportworks.com

sbs

Lloyd it's a good thread and as usual I enjoy reading your explanations.

However, it would have been a much better thread if you'd left this out:

1997Z

I want to second what Lloyd said here. I know less than nothing about hotrodding cars. I have talked with Lloyd a number of times over the course of a year and each time he graciously answered my questions, no matter how dumb they would seem to a knowledgeable car guy. It is because of this I sent Lloyd my castings. I can't wait to get them back and installed. I do not see a little bit of vendor rivalry as a problem. Maybe they will get into a price war...

AiSr

I do not recall ever posting on any of your threads much less "many times over in previous post". If I have mis-interpreted this comment & it was not directed at me, sorry bout that..However, all I have to say, and this is the end of my posting on your thread, you have now deleted your post with the wiseass condescending remark that I quoted..thank you, if it was done for the right reason rather than to avoid any negative comments. I do admit that did seem so out of character for you. You have always been such a gentleman on these forums.

I will be the 1st to applaude your business ethics and hard work..we know how much physical work this job requires in addition to the customer support end. You are a top notch competitor that has carved out a nitch in the LTx market. My hat is off to you for the price, service, & product you offer.

So now you are claivoyant...you know what we are thinking. Perhaps you did not actually intend this literally, but words should be choosen very carefully on public forums.

Since you had the conversation with Phil concerning this very subject, (which we relate to all potential customers if they begin with the flow/dyno question), and, the home page of our website clearly states this, I think you could say there is agreement on these points.

As you are aware, there is much more to producing a great performing head than those points...No one ever talks about chamber design, fuel atomization, valve height tolerances, guide to stem clearances, repeatability of runner/chamber volume & shape...the list goes on and on.

Most of the dribble on these boards seems to drift toward the esoteric BS that is in most cases is nothing more than regurgitation of some article or text from a physics text book. Those that actually know & apply this highend stuff for a living do not post on message boards.

You should be flattered...competition drives all markets to develop improved products that represent better value for the consumer. When you have whomever is doing your machine work now (was Trevor's shop last we heard):

1)PCD mill intake/exhaust flanges & valve cover rails for like new sealing sufaces & improved port aligment
2)PCD mill decks to within .001" max end to end/side to side with a MLS finish if required
3) build valve jobs with single angle cuts vs form inserts presently...but will be going to F1/Cup quality CNC valve jobs very shortly with a Newen.

and offer these services at no additional charge to the customer you are dead on concening the shrinking profit margin.

Yes, we currently charge an additional $115 for Ferrea 6k & $125 for Comp 26918 ( I assume you are using this spring when you use the term "beehive") That would bring our 190cc CNC head/cam pkg to $1,935 what I consider a value since it is a competition proven head (Rick Abare). When properly installed & tuned it will deliver unparallel repeatable performance out of the box time after time.

Thanks to all our customers thanks again for your business and support. For any prospective customers, we would appreciate the opportunity to earn your business..if you are ever in our area, Concord, NC, drop by for a shop tour. Happy Holidays to all!

Ron

Mindgame

LR, I remember our discussions on Mach real well and I still think you're off base on the subject.

Then we have this quote....

Which is basically the same thing I was trying to get across in our last discussion in which you adamantly disagreed.

I'm surprised you didn't try to beat this one into submission too.

I don't necessarily want to play devil's advocate with this one but I guess I should...

If an engine were just built to run on an a dyno, our winners and losers would be a bit different than they actually are. Many of your top NMCA, NHRA, IHRA racers would have to shuffle positions in their standings.

How does this have anything to do with cylinder heads? Well, it has everything to do with them because a good fast car is more than an engine. If you take two identical cars, one with a 6-spd manual tranny and the other with a 3-spd auto, then you have two cars that will need slightly different cylinder heads. The engine has to recover between shifts and I have personally built cars that even after spending a lot of time with converters and other things, were much faster with slightly smaller port volumes.

All that said, I think a head ported to 210 cc is right at home on a 6500 rpm 350. A 250 cc head is right at home on the same engine turning 8000 but that combination might even be faster with a 240 cc head.

If all of this were easy as 1+1=2 everyone would be driving 8-second street cars.

-Mindgame

1racerdude

If all of this were easy as 1+1=2 everyone would be driving 8-second street cars.

-Mindgame[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------------------

If all of this were easy as 1+1=2 everyone would be driving 8-second street cars.

--------------------------------------------------------

That's the easy part and 1+1=2.
The hard part is $1000+$1000=$2000...

Still believe in what I said about the MACH numbers and a port going sonic.

Mindgame

And I still take C.F. Taylor, P.H. Smith, Curtis Leverton, Don Losito, Chuck Riddeck, Larry Meaux and now Bret Bauer's findings over your beliefs LR. It's really nothing personal.

Might be a little easier on ya if I thought you really wanted to learn something LR. I can scan with the best of them. If you're ever interested in reading some of Taylor & Smith's stuff, well... you know where to find me.

-Mindgame

SStrokerAce

Mindgame,

Thanks for the compliment, but even with what is claimed by others to be a inflated ego I can't even come close to saying that.

Sounds like you are hinting on pressure recovery with this statement....

It's definately a interesting topic to get into as well.

and oh yeah, I agree on this one... Bret

MyShibbyZ28

Does anyone else see this thread going from an informative subject to a comparison of words? Maybe it's just me

flatlander757

NightTrain66

AiSr,

I'll send ya a PM.

Atleast we BOTH agree this is good reading for the average person on the board and will educate them on head purchases. These 4 points are not intended to bring business to me, it is more about educating the average guy so that everytime someone pops up with a set of "killer" heads that flow "XXX" amount, they will have a better idea that the flow #'s might or might not be valid and even if they are, this is one VERY SMALL piece of the puzzle.

I recommend to EVERYONE that if they ahve a porter they trust, stick with em. If they are looking for a porter, there are some good points here to think about.

The best way to judge how well the cylinder heads are will be to compare a how the heads perform on a similar car (weight, gear, stall, trans type, 60 ft time, etc) with the same cam, same complimenting parts (headers, TB, tuning quality), etc, etc. I think a comparison like this will show that both of our heads are pretty awesome compared to what most people offer.

Lloyd

1racerdude

I will still stay with mine and others I know beliefs.
Both are winning races and I don't see it that .6 MACH is creaming the ones that don't run it.
When my engines start getting their ***'s kicked and I can say "well if ya had .6 Mach ya could be winning again" I may move on to something else or something in the line of more speed in the port. Until then I will build them the old fashion way and not the "trick of the week way".

SStrokerAce

Guys, sometimes threads move around in context, what Larry Ross (racerdude) and Mindgamge are talking about are still in context of this thread completely.

I have a slight rant though so if you will pardon me...

Yes indeed Lloyd has, probably where he is head and shoulders above the rest of us on the boards. (myself included) I would imagine that in the context of a face to face situation where you said everything you tell to others in "private" he would be a different animal, I sure as hell would be. I know the man personally and I would say that your comment underestimates his status as a gentleman, but i'm still not going to mess with a pissed off Texan.

I would agree, a lot of these "highend" guys post on other boards where BS like this is not allowed and the context of the posts are over 99% of consumers heads. My problem is I have yet to see your company work towards education of your customers in a public context. I have this problem personally and professionaly with a few individuals and companies out there. Some of us make a habit of it purely out of interest of the line of work we do or the hobby we use to fill our free time. Mindgame, Larry Ross, Rich Krause, Injuneer Fred and my father would be a good list of some of the guys who take their free time helping guys out on here. I try as must as I can but lets take me out of this because your just going to assume I do it for my personal gain. If I really cared about financial gain I would have stuck with working in the finance field.

Ok now my rant is over.... lets get to the real bussiness at hand.

Last time I checked Trevor was one hell of a good cylinder head man so subcontracting work to a guy like that IMHO is not a bad thing, but don't exactly know what you mean by your comment. Doing everything in house is great, but you do get limitations from that as well.

FWIW Ron, the best heads I have seen machined were done on some pretty low tech equipment. I understand the limitations of the new age of equipment and how much more control we have, but for a lot of things I don't think it gives the best results. I know a few head porters with a hella lot longer list of achivements than Rick Abare that use a Bridgeport and some very accurate fixtures to make amazing valve jobs, and they don't do this out of lack of funds for equipment they do it because they get better results than a Sunnen/Newen or Serdi equipment. Same guys have some pretty amazing low Ra numbers on the surface finish on the machined flat surfaces for MLS gaskets as well. (verified by a profilometer)

I just want to point out to the average guy here that "bling" doesn't always get you more zing, but has to cost the customer more due to increased overhead. I grew up in the same industry as you have been in for 35 years, the difference being we don't make coin selling the latest and the greatest tools and machines we make money using machines to make parts. I've seen what salesmen consider dinosaurs for machines churn out 1,000's of parts with tolerances in the .0002" range time and time again. All done by proper setup and operators. The funny thing is these dinosaurs are located in the same shop as CNC equipment that works in millions of a inch.

Bret

ttrimz208

Great thread. While I don't know much about head porting. I have worked in a few machine shops. Bret is right. Most of the fixtures and dies are built by the old guys in the corner with the 20-40 years of experince. They are called journymen or master journymen because they know their sh*t. That is what they do, close tolerance one off stuff. Bridgeports and tooling lathes ran by an expert can make almost anything. The million dollar high tech equipment is ran by the kid right out of trade school.
I have emailed Lloyd a few times. He has always replied quickly and honestly. I have not bought anything from him yet, but his answers have been very informative.

LagunaS3

This is a word to, and about, Ron at AI and Lloyd. Not too long ago I was very wishy-washy on what heads I wanted on my car. Unfortunately I decided on a pair from eBay that I paid for and never got...but that is another subject. I was talking with Ron from AI about some heads. I asked about putting "beehives" on the heads and was told that was included...then later was told it was an extra cost item. When pressed a little more to figure out why that difference in price my PM's weren't answered anymore. Lloyd, on the other hand, went out of his way during his personal time to help me get a different pair of heads outfitted with proper hardware for my application. That is, of course, on top of the hours he has already spent with me trying to pick out a cam he's not even going to sell or helping me to decide how extreme I need to get with head work. I can say that the PERSONAL attention he gave me on a very low buck item on a Sunday at 7pm earned him a customer for life. As far as the gentleman comment, he is. He SHOWED me some work from a very well known competitor and their less than stellar attempt at intake porting. I have seen Lloyd's work and his competitors work. For my money it will be Lloyd every time. So...as far as bashing...Lloyd has been taking bashing for a very long time in the way of competitors mis-informing the public. A lie about product is bashing...in a round about way. I also don't believe Lloyd every said AI was the company he was speaking of...I guess they just had a guilty conscience and felt the need to defend themselves. You can't find a better guy and businessman out there than Lloyd...period