Dissappointed with track times
08-05-2009, 07:44 PM
#1
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
Dissappointed with track times
Let me start by apologizing as this will probabally be a long post.
I was a member on here about 5 or 6 years ago when I was building this car and appreciate everyone that helped me back then. Due to graduating college, getting married, buying a house, and trying to stay employed, I haven't had time to race much. I had the car out last year at the 1/8th mile track and the best I could get it to run was an 8.06@86MPH with a 1.75 60ft.
I was thinking it should have been a little closer to a 7.50 so I am a little dissappointed and I am at a loss.
My times weren't real consistent with trying different shift points (8.06-8.39), but the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to make much power at higher RPM. My fastest times were shifting at 5300rpm. Trying to go to 6000 it seemed to fall on its face and ran in the 8.30's.
Hopefully my mods showed up in the sig...So my question to you guys is, is this a reasonable time or am I missing something. The car is street weight ~3700lbs with me in it, and it has a PCMforless tune, which last year I had him do another one with little to no difference. He recomended a much bigger stall, like 3500, and said it would make a huge difference.
I have done so much searching trying to find answers I am at my wits end. I verified the fuel pressure is correct, checked the o2's to make sure it is going into closed loop, triple checked the comp R's, I'm not sure what else I can do without spending a fortune.
Just wondering if this car should make more power @ higher RPM and should be faster than an 8.06? Or is it just wishful thinking?
Thanks for all the help, If you have any questions regarding any thing I left out, just let me know.
I was a member on here about 5 or 6 years ago when I was building this car and appreciate everyone that helped me back then. Due to graduating college, getting married, buying a house, and trying to stay employed, I haven't had time to race much. I had the car out last year at the 1/8th mile track and the best I could get it to run was an 8.06@86MPH with a 1.75 60ft.
I was thinking it should have been a little closer to a 7.50 so I am a little dissappointed and I am at a loss.
My times weren't real consistent with trying different shift points (8.06-8.39), but the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to make much power at higher RPM. My fastest times were shifting at 5300rpm. Trying to go to 6000 it seemed to fall on its face and ran in the 8.30's.
Hopefully my mods showed up in the sig...So my question to you guys is, is this a reasonable time or am I missing something. The car is street weight ~3700lbs with me in it, and it has a PCMforless tune, which last year I had him do another one with little to no difference. He recomended a much bigger stall, like 3500, and said it would make a huge difference.
I have done so much searching trying to find answers I am at my wits end. I verified the fuel pressure is correct, checked the o2's to make sure it is going into closed loop, triple checked the comp R's, I'm not sure what else I can do without spending a fortune.
Just wondering if this car should make more power @ higher RPM and should be faster than an 8.06? Or is it just wishful thinking?
Thanks for all the help, If you have any questions regarding any thing I left out, just let me know.
08-06-2009, 11:58 AM
#3
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Carol Stream, Il.
Posts: 3,557
LD1, you do need to put it on the dyno for a couple of pulls with a wideband. If your running faster short shifting, maybe your springs are worn out or were not the right spring to begin with. BTDT Or maybe your fuel pump can't keep up? Did you check the pressure during a run? That was the case with mine many years ago when we put it on the dyno to see how close the mail order tune was. It couldn't keep up in the higher RPMs.
You didn't mention the weather that day, how was the temp, DA? Another thing that you mentioned was the converter. Not that that is your problem, but you really need a quality converter with a stall of at least 3600. You could easily knock off another 2 tenths.
You didn't mention the weather that day, how was the temp, DA? Another thing that you mentioned was the converter. Not that that is your problem, but you really need a quality converter with a stall of at least 3600. You could easily knock off another 2 tenths.
08-06-2009, 12:29 PM
#4
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,025
Are those heads ported at all or just straight from afr? I would ditch that cam too and get something in the 240 duration for that monster 396. Also as noted get a stall around 3600, a quality converter makes all the difference!
08-06-2009, 06:07 PM
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
I don't have easy acess to a dyno but I will look into it for sure.
As for the pump, (it would be impossible to list all of the mods in the sig), it is a walbro 240. Is it big enough??
The heads are straight from AFR, the "race readies" with whatever springs that came on them. I think they were a double spring if I rember correctly. The car has maybe 10 passes on it and no street driving, so i don't think they are worn out. I chose not to do any port work to the heads because the flow #'s that AFR quotes seemed to be pretty good.
As for the cam, I actually went one size bigger than cmotorsports recomended back when I was building it in 2003-2004. They suggested the 224/230 and said the bigger cam (230/236) would give up too much down low with the combo that I have. But i have good power down low, its the top end that is lacking.
The converter is just what the guy that built the tranny reccomended for a street/strip ~500hp car. The converter would be a PITA to change, and expensive for only a few tenths, and it still wouldn't helt the top end, or would it???
Edit: Does anyone know a good place to dyno in central ohio.
As for the pump, (it would be impossible to list all of the mods in the sig), it is a walbro 240. Is it big enough??
The heads are straight from AFR, the "race readies" with whatever springs that came on them. I think they were a double spring if I rember correctly. The car has maybe 10 passes on it and no street driving, so i don't think they are worn out. I chose not to do any port work to the heads because the flow #'s that AFR quotes seemed to be pretty good.
As for the cam, I actually went one size bigger than cmotorsports recomended back when I was building it in 2003-2004. They suggested the 224/230 and said the bigger cam (230/236) would give up too much down low with the combo that I have. But i have good power down low, its the top end that is lacking.
The converter is just what the guy that built the tranny reccomended for a street/strip ~500hp car. The converter would be a PITA to change, and expensive for only a few tenths, and it still wouldn't helt the top end, or would it???
Edit: Does anyone know a good place to dyno in central ohio.
Last edited by LD1; 08-06-2009 at 06:09 PM. Reason: ?
08-07-2009, 08:22 AM
#7
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: TX
Posts: 3,523
The as cast numbers of any head are almost always inflated. I would be willing to bet they don't flow near the advertised numbers. The heads being ported and a good converter would drop you to the 7s in the 1/8th for sure.
08-07-2009, 09:24 AM
#8
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bridgewater, MA
Posts: 5,645
Let me start by apologizing as this will probabally be a long post.
I was a member on here about 5 or 6 years ago when I was building this car and appreciate everyone that helped me back then. Due to graduating college, getting married, buying a house, and trying to stay employed, I haven't had time to race much. I had the car out last year at the 1/8th mile track and the best I could get it to run was an 8.06@86MPH with a 1.75 60ft.
I was thinking it should have been a little closer to a 7.50 so I am a little dissappointed and I am at a loss.
My times weren't real consistent with trying different shift points (8.06-8.39), but the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to make much power at higher RPM. My fastest times were shifting at 5300rpm. Trying to go to 6000 it seemed to fall on its face and ran in the 8.30's.
Hopefully my mods showed up in the sig...So my question to you guys is, is this a reasonable time or am I missing something. The car is street weight ~3700lbs with me in it, and it has a PCMforless tune, which last year I had him do another one with little to no difference. He recomended a much bigger stall, like 3500, and said it would make a huge difference.
I have done so much searching trying to find answers I am at my wits end. I verified the fuel pressure is correct, checked the o2's to make sure it is going into closed loop, triple checked the comp R's, I'm not sure what else I can do without spending a fortune.
Just wondering if this car should make more power @ higher RPM and should be faster than an 8.06? Or is it just wishful thinking?
Thanks for all the help, If you have any questions regarding any thing I left out, just let me know.
I was a member on here about 5 or 6 years ago when I was building this car and appreciate everyone that helped me back then. Due to graduating college, getting married, buying a house, and trying to stay employed, I haven't had time to race much. I had the car out last year at the 1/8th mile track and the best I could get it to run was an 8.06@86MPH with a 1.75 60ft.
I was thinking it should have been a little closer to a 7.50 so I am a little dissappointed and I am at a loss.
My times weren't real consistent with trying different shift points (8.06-8.39), but the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to make much power at higher RPM. My fastest times were shifting at 5300rpm. Trying to go to 6000 it seemed to fall on its face and ran in the 8.30's.
Hopefully my mods showed up in the sig...So my question to you guys is, is this a reasonable time or am I missing something. The car is street weight ~3700lbs with me in it, and it has a PCMforless tune, which last year I had him do another one with little to no difference. He recomended a much bigger stall, like 3500, and said it would make a huge difference.
I have done so much searching trying to find answers I am at my wits end. I verified the fuel pressure is correct, checked the o2's to make sure it is going into closed loop, triple checked the comp R's, I'm not sure what else I can do without spending a fortune.
Just wondering if this car should make more power @ higher RPM and should be faster than an 8.06? Or is it just wishful thinking?
Thanks for all the help, If you have any questions regarding any thing I left out, just let me know.
I would assume you are using a LT4 intake manifold with those heads right?
That cam with your cubic inch should make peak power 5700rpm or so. On my stock bottom end and factory ported heads it peaked @ 6000rpm. I don't think the heads are your problem... but a combo of mail order tune + poor converter choice aren't helping the situation.
If you checked the rockers, and the fuel pressure is rock solid @ WOT, then I am not sure why it would fall on its face after 5300rpm.
08-07-2009, 11:50 AM
#10
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Carol Stream, Il.
Posts: 3,557
Hopefully you'll have have a good tech help you out if and when you put it on a dyno. As I mentioned the springs might not be up to the task and the dyno operator should have no problem figuring that out after a few pulls.
Down the road you really should put a better converter in it. Their not cheap but will make a huge difference in performance. It's not just better off the line but your shift extension will be far better. Think about how far down in the power band you are after a shift if your short shifting. Once you figure out what's wrong I wouldn't doubt peak power to be around 6k and your shift points around 6300-6400. With a quality converter the rpms would only drop around 1400 or so.
Do you happen to know the DA the day you took it to the track?
Down the road you really should put a better converter in it. Their not cheap but will make a huge difference in performance. It's not just better off the line but your shift extension will be far better. Think about how far down in the power band you are after a shift if your short shifting. Once you figure out what's wrong I wouldn't doubt peak power to be around 6k and your shift points around 6300-6400. With a quality converter the rpms would only drop around 1400 or so.
Do you happen to know the DA the day you took it to the track?
08-07-2009, 03:15 PM
#12
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,035
Wooshie, this guy has a 396 so that is a relatively small cam.
LD1,
I know you should be faster. I am trying to get mine tuned right as well (383 w/ stock LE1 heads) and I ran a 7.88@90 with a 1.74 60' a few weeks ago. I am having issues as well. So, I know yours should be at least as fast as mine.
I also have a high RPM miss I am tracking down. I am thinking plugs, wires or opti is my problem though. That or my stock fuel pump.
I would check your plugs/wires and make sure nothing is touching a header and read your plugs (rich/lean) from that. I also think you have a spring issue. I had that cam with my motor when it was stock (and when I blew the engine) and that cam is very "peaky". The lobes on it are real quick to go up, and quick to go down; steep. I could see how that would wear out springs easily. With those same springs I even broke some springs (not the 918s, but EX612s... old company probably out of business due to crappy springs). You get the point though, it is a rough cam on valvetrain. Another thing that cam did to me was popped some of my lifter caps out. I don't suggest that this happened to you, because I had the faulty comp lifters from years ago the comp Rs, but if I were you I would think about replacing lifters and springs and seeing if that fixes it.
Hope this helps some, I will let you know if new plugs/wires/tune also from PCMforLESS helps.
LD1,
I know you should be faster. I am trying to get mine tuned right as well (383 w/ stock LE1 heads) and I ran a 7.88@90 with a 1.74 60' a few weeks ago. I am having issues as well. So, I know yours should be at least as fast as mine.
I also have a high RPM miss I am tracking down. I am thinking plugs, wires or opti is my problem though. That or my stock fuel pump.
I would check your plugs/wires and make sure nothing is touching a header and read your plugs (rich/lean) from that. I also think you have a spring issue. I had that cam with my motor when it was stock (and when I blew the engine) and that cam is very "peaky". The lobes on it are real quick to go up, and quick to go down; steep. I could see how that would wear out springs easily. With those same springs I even broke some springs (not the 918s, but EX612s... old company probably out of business due to crappy springs). You get the point though, it is a rough cam on valvetrain. Another thing that cam did to me was popped some of my lifter caps out. I don't suggest that this happened to you, because I had the faulty comp lifters from years ago the comp Rs, but if I were you I would think about replacing lifters and springs and seeing if that fixes it.
Hope this helps some, I will let you know if new plugs/wires/tune also from PCMforLESS helps.
08-07-2009, 06:14 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
I appreciate all the responses so far.
To answer some questions that were brought up.
Yes it is an LT-4 intake.
Plugs and wires are good quality and not touching.
Track conditions were normal for late september last year. About 50-60 degrees with low humidity.
As for the lifters, I also have the comp R's that were purchased back in oct of 2003 from cmotorsports. Could these be faulty? I have done a little searching on them and didn't realize there were so many problems. These were what was highly reccomended back in 03 on this board and others. So when were the faulty ones made and how do you easily identify them???
I guess I was right in figuring that my car was slow for what it is, so thinks for confirming it. You guys mention a "good" dyno tune as opposed to a mail order, but being new to this, not every dyno operator has the ability to tune the 93 chip right???
I haven't contacted IPS motorsports yet, but can they tune? or do you just have to relay the info to the people that do the mail order tunes??
Does anyone know of any other suggestions for dyno tuning in central OH.
I really hate spending any more money on this car as it has already costed me a fortune, but I need to either make it faster without spending a fortune, or get rid and let someone else dial it in.
To answer some questions that were brought up.
Yes it is an LT-4 intake.
Plugs and wires are good quality and not touching.
Track conditions were normal for late september last year. About 50-60 degrees with low humidity.
As for the lifters, I also have the comp R's that were purchased back in oct of 2003 from cmotorsports. Could these be faulty? I have done a little searching on them and didn't realize there were so many problems. These were what was highly reccomended back in 03 on this board and others. So when were the faulty ones made and how do you easily identify them???
I guess I was right in figuring that my car was slow for what it is, so thinks for confirming it. You guys mention a "good" dyno tune as opposed to a mail order, but being new to this, not every dyno operator has the ability to tune the 93 chip right???
I haven't contacted IPS motorsports yet, but can they tune? or do you just have to relay the info to the people that do the mail order tunes??
Does anyone know of any other suggestions for dyno tuning in central OH.
I really hate spending any more money on this car as it has already costed me a fortune, but I need to either make it faster without spending a fortune, or get rid and let someone else dial it in.
08-08-2009, 10:21 AM
#15
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: McAllen Tx. USA
Posts: 537
You are correct, not too many dyno operators with the ability to do chips. I had to buy my own tuning software and chip burner. But it was worth it, I also spend more than 2 years chasing my tail thinking our problem was mechanical. Finally invested in the software and hardware and it really paid off.
I decided to do it when we first dynoed it, it made 290 RWHP with heads/cam/boltons but was incredibly lean between 3000 to 4500 rpm, the dyno operator refused to do a full 6200 rpm pull. I invested on tuning, and it was like a miracle, started to see increments of 15hp as he kept adding fuel and working timing. I ended up with 365 RWHP, which is not too bad. Totally woke it up.
I decided to do it when we first dynoed it, it made 290 RWHP with heads/cam/boltons but was incredibly lean between 3000 to 4500 rpm, the dyno operator refused to do a full 6200 rpm pull. I invested on tuning, and it was like a miracle, started to see increments of 15hp as he kept adding fuel and working timing. I ended up with 365 RWHP, which is not too bad. Totally woke it up.