Dissappointed with track times
08-08-2009, 11:19 AM
#16
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You are correct, not too many dyno operators with the ability to do chips. I had to buy my own tuning software and chip burner. But it was worth it, I also spend more than 2 years chasing my tail thinking our problem was mechanical. Finally invested in the software and hardware and it really paid off.
I decided to do it when we first dynoed it, it made 290 RWHP with heads/cam/boltons but was incredibly lean between 3000 to 4500 rpm, the dyno operator refused to do a full 6200 rpm pull. I invested on tuning, and it was like a miracle, started to see increments of 15hp as he kept adding fuel and working timing. I ended up with 365 RWHP, which is not too bad. Totally woke it up.
I decided to do it when we first dynoed it, it made 290 RWHP with heads/cam/boltons but was incredibly lean between 3000 to 4500 rpm, the dyno operator refused to do a full 6200 rpm pull. I invested on tuning, and it was like a miracle, started to see increments of 15hp as he kept adding fuel and working timing. I ended up with 365 RWHP, which is not too bad. Totally woke it up.
How mich do you have invested in the setup??
08-08-2009, 11:48 AM
#17
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: McAllen Tx. USA
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I use Tunercat for software and the Pocket Programmer 2 for the chip burning. Search the tunercat website, it has all the necessary links. I invested I believe $80 for the software, and about $350-$400 for the necessary hardware. You will also need Datamaster for datalogging, (it is free for 20 runs, very important when dyno tuning), and a OBD1 cable another $80 or so. Thank god, I already had the laptop.
You should do one dyno pull to see if you A/F ratio is far off. Should be no more than $50 for a pull.
You should do one dyno pull to see if you A/F ratio is far off. Should be no more than $50 for a pull.
08-09-2009, 10:47 PM
#18
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Location: North Platte, NE
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I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm sure most would agree that there are a few problems with your setup, but one is probably not your heads. AFR makes a great product.
1. TH400 with only a 2400 stall and 3.54's is not going to 60ft at all. You lost the low 1st gear from your 4L60, and you need at least a 3200 stall if not bigger, and at least 3.73's.
2. For a 396, you should have went with a .24x / .24x or .25x duration cam. That 396 is making that .23x / .23x cam seem weak and small, that's probably why it doesn't like high RPM's.
3. Dynotune would help a lot, but wouldn't make up for the 2 issues above. This is all my opinion, but in a way if the car runs good, you have minor things to work on here. It could be worse, and you could be tracking down missfires on top of all this. Hang in there.
1. TH400 with only a 2400 stall and 3.54's is not going to 60ft at all. You lost the low 1st gear from your 4L60, and you need at least a 3200 stall if not bigger, and at least 3.73's.
2. For a 396, you should have went with a .24x / .24x or .25x duration cam. That 396 is making that .23x / .23x cam seem weak and small, that's probably why it doesn't like high RPM's.
3. Dynotune would help a lot, but wouldn't make up for the 2 issues above. This is all my opinion, but in a way if the car runs good, you have minor things to work on here. It could be worse, and you could be tracking down missfires on top of all this. Hang in there.
08-09-2009, 11:49 PM
#19
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
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I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm sure most would agree that there are a few problems with your setup, but one is probably not your heads. AFR makes a great product.
1. TH400 with only a 2400 stall and 3.54's is not going to 60ft at all. You lost the low 1st gear from your 4L60, and you need at least a 3200 stall if not bigger, and at least 3.73's.
2. For a 396, you should have went with a .24x / .24x or .25x duration cam. That 396 is making that .23x / .23x cam seem weak and small, that's probably why it doesn't like high RPM's.
3. Dynotune would help a lot, but wouldn't make up for the 2 issues above. This is all my opinion, but in a way if the car runs good, you have minor things to work on here. It could be worse, and you could be tracking down missfires on top of all this. Hang in there.
1. TH400 with only a 2400 stall and 3.54's is not going to 60ft at all. You lost the low 1st gear from your 4L60, and you need at least a 3200 stall if not bigger, and at least 3.73's.
2. For a 396, you should have went with a .24x / .24x or .25x duration cam. That 396 is making that .23x / .23x cam seem weak and small, that's probably why it doesn't like high RPM's.
3. Dynotune would help a lot, but wouldn't make up for the 2 issues above. This is all my opinion, but in a way if the car runs good, you have minor things to work on here. It could be worse, and you could be tracking down missfires on top of all this. Hang in there.
As for the cam, it seems that the times have changed. back in 03-04 when I was building, everyone said this is a borderline too big of a cam. And cmotorsports actually reccomended the 224/230.
I will try to locate a place to do some dyno work this week. I am hoping to get it to run good (mid 7's in the 1/8th) without having to change cams, converter, or anything else major.
I built this as a street/strip car, but I only plan on racing it and no street driving. So I was pondering...could a set of solid rollers be used with this cam??? or are the lobes just too agressive and will wipe out the rest of the valvetrain??I think I know the answer but I figured i'd ask anyway.
08-10-2009, 01:40 PM
#20
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Location: North Platte, NE
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The car was an M6 car so I dont know what the 4l60 is like. the reason for the 3.54's is due to the 26" tires out back so they give it a better overall ratio. 26's with the 3.54 is almost identical overall ratio as a 30" and 4.10's of 33's and 4.56's. The combo that I have will onlt give me a top speed of 131MPH @ 6000rpm. It's because you don't have that overdrive gear to go into. It depends on what you want to do though, have a top speed of 131 or run 7's in the 1/8th. I don't see you getting it done with the current setup. Gears, converter, tune, would probably do it.
As for the cam, it seems that the times have changed. back in 03-04 when I was building, everyone said this is a borderline too big of a cam. And cmotorsports actually reccomended the 224/230. This is odd, because I started my first motor in 2001 and I went with a XE 230/236 for my 355, which was very common. You got some not so great info there. Those cubic inches is eating up that cam, if this was a 355, you would see 6500 rpm's easy and it would pull very well with the exception of the converter, gear thing still. I'm sure it makes a lot of torque for you having the 396, but that's probably it. You're not pulling in enough air for those cubes.
I will try to locate a place to do some dyno work this week. I am hoping to get it to run good (mid 7's in the 1/8th) without having to change cams, converter, or anything else major. This is a good start and the cheapest.
I built this as a street/strip car, but I only plan on racing it and no street driving. So I was pondering...could a set of solid rollers be used with this cam??? or are the lobes just too agressive and will wipe out the rest of the valvetrain??I think I know the answer but I figured i'd ask anyway.
As for the cam, it seems that the times have changed. back in 03-04 when I was building, everyone said this is a borderline too big of a cam. And cmotorsports actually reccomended the 224/230. This is odd, because I started my first motor in 2001 and I went with a XE 230/236 for my 355, which was very common. You got some not so great info there. Those cubic inches is eating up that cam, if this was a 355, you would see 6500 rpm's easy and it would pull very well with the exception of the converter, gear thing still. I'm sure it makes a lot of torque for you having the 396, but that's probably it. You're not pulling in enough air for those cubes.
I will try to locate a place to do some dyno work this week. I am hoping to get it to run good (mid 7's in the 1/8th) without having to change cams, converter, or anything else major. This is a good start and the cheapest.
I built this as a street/strip car, but I only plan on racing it and no street driving. So I was pondering...could a set of solid rollers be used with this cam??? or are the lobes just too agressive and will wipe out the rest of the valvetrain??I think I know the answer but I figured i'd ask anyway.
08-10-2009, 01:42 PM
#21
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Location: North Platte, NE
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One more thing, that dana is heavy and eating some power. Great rear end, but more power loss and more weight than the 10 bolt. Would still rather have it than my 10 bolt though. You could make this car run, but you have to consider some of these things. Tune it, if that doesn't cure it, then heavily consider gears, and stall, and I'm positive you would be happier with it.
08-10-2009, 02:15 PM
#22
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Well I am waiting on a call back from IPS for a dyno tune and started going through my paperwork again and I ran across the sheet for the cloyes double roller timing set.
It indicates that the square key is for 4 degrees retard, rounded is 0 and triangle is advanced 4. I am positive that when I did it i went with the zero mark but the more I think about it, i am concerened that maybe i went with the square 4 degrees retard mark. Could this be causing issues at high RPM, because the sheet says that retard 4 degrees will gain topend and lose on bottom end??
Just pondering all these things, and it is kinda a PITA to pull the timing cover off and check. Hopefully I will be able to work something out with IPS for a dyno tune. I called another place called slowmotion in sunbury, and they can do 3 runs with a wideband for $65, but they are booked out a week and a half and specalize in FWD 4cyls. I only talked to a secretary at IPS, but she said they do have the ability to burn chips, but wasnt sure if they could do the LT1's, if they can and are reasonable that would be great.
It indicates that the square key is for 4 degrees retard, rounded is 0 and triangle is advanced 4. I am positive that when I did it i went with the zero mark but the more I think about it, i am concerened that maybe i went with the square 4 degrees retard mark. Could this be causing issues at high RPM, because the sheet says that retard 4 degrees will gain topend and lose on bottom end??
Just pondering all these things, and it is kinda a PITA to pull the timing cover off and check. Hopefully I will be able to work something out with IPS for a dyno tune. I called another place called slowmotion in sunbury, and they can do 3 runs with a wideband for $65, but they are booked out a week and a half and specalize in FWD 4cyls. I only talked to a secretary at IPS, but she said they do have the ability to burn chips, but wasnt sure if they could do the LT1's, if they can and are reasonable that would be great.
08-11-2009, 10:37 AM
#24
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: rhinebeck, ny
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i would say get some better springs and some 1.7 rockers. btw older afr's weren't exactly a great head.. i had a similar sbc setup that was a 383 and it didn't turn out to be what i had hoped for.
Last edited by red94chicken; 08-11-2009 at 10:39 AM.
08-11-2009, 12:15 PM
#25
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Location: McAllen Tx. USA
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Before replacing anything I would dyno to see where your AFR is at, tuning a 93 Speed Density is a crapshoot through mail order. Even with that mild gearing/stall speed, you should trap closer 90mph if not beyond in the 1/8. 86 mph in 1/8 = 320-330 WHP range. Your set-up should be closer to the 380-390 range. AFR heads are great, just too small a cam to break 400.
08-11-2009, 01:29 PM
#26
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Just an update, hopefully we will be able to figure something out monday as I have a dyno appt at IPS. They said a few runs with the wideband would cost $50. They said they also have tuner cat and a chip eraser/burner, but the part that I am concerned with is they charge $125 it they have to make some minor adjustments, and said it would be $400 if they had to go through everything if the tune was way off. I guess I dont understand what kind of difference in programming would triple the cost. He really didn't have a clear answer but rather suggested doing the $50 baseline and going frome there. If it's going to be $125 cool, if its going to be over 400, I think I'll get the equipment and learn to tune myself.
08-11-2009, 04:00 PM
#27
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Retarding the cam is for better top end but only to a point. In general if your not lucky enough to have the cam degreed in perfectly (and how would you know without experimenting) you would be better off with a little to much advance than you would having it retarded. Retarding a cam is a good way to lose a lot of HP.
08-11-2009, 06:44 PM
#28
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Location: Orlando,Fl
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I'm sure everyone has said it, but you definitely need to do something about that converter.
My car is just a 'lil 383, non AFR headed, LT1 and it went 7.5xx all day @ 92.xx on a dying opti.
With that 396 I would suggest something in the 24X/25Xish duration aswell with a 3800-4000 stall converter.
My car is just a 'lil 383, non AFR headed, LT1 and it went 7.5xx all day @ 92.xx on a dying opti.
With that 396 I would suggest something in the 24X/25Xish duration aswell with a 3800-4000 stall converter.
08-12-2009, 05:54 PM
#29
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Just another update. As I mentioned I will be dyno tuning on monday but in the meantime I decided to buy a longacre camber/caster guage since I never had an alignment done after the tubular k-member install. So I pulled out my old college alignment spec book and went to town.
The camber was dead on @ .5 degrees. The left caster was on @ 4.5 degrees but the right was a little off @ 2.5degrees. I fixed that and decided to check the toe (which swapping k-members shouldn't affect) and i was suprised. 1.25" toe out and spec is 0 to .1 toe in.
A note in my books that I find interesting says that 1/8" toe out will cause the tires to scrub an equivellent of skidding a tire sideways for 11ft every mile. With a 1.25 toe out that would equate to 66ft per mile, or about 8 feet in the eight mile. I figure this alone could have been costing me a tenth or two and maybe a MPH or two.
The camber was dead on @ .5 degrees. The left caster was on @ 4.5 degrees but the right was a little off @ 2.5degrees. I fixed that and decided to check the toe (which swapping k-members shouldn't affect) and i was suprised. 1.25" toe out and spec is 0 to .1 toe in.
A note in my books that I find interesting says that 1/8" toe out will cause the tires to scrub an equivellent of skidding a tire sideways for 11ft every mile. With a 1.25 toe out that would equate to 66ft per mile, or about 8 feet in the eight mile. I figure this alone could have been costing me a tenth or two and maybe a MPH or two.
08-17-2009, 12:13 PM
#30
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Update
Today was dyno day for me @ IPS motorsports.
It ran a very dissappointing 280 RWHP and 313 RWTQ And dropped off bigtime @ over 5000rpm It wont let me post attachments????
The A/F is way rich down low and spikes to lean @ 4500 and then levels out. The tuner (even though I didn't get it tuned) was pretty knowledgable. He said that there has got to be something else going on other than the tunning, like cam degree off, or something else???? He said that cam/head combo is a good one and should do 6600rpm and well over 400HP. He showed me an example of a 383 LT-1 with a 224/230XE and hand ported stock heads that made 390RWHP and pulled strong to 6000.
Overall it was informative but I wasn't impressed with the service I got. I made the appt last week and was told $50 for a baseline 3-pulls. Appt is for 10AM and I show up at 9:30 to get unloaded. It took them about 20min of messing with the computer to even get it to see that the dyno was hooked up. As he was warming up the car I mentioned about the speed not regestering and he said it would be okay. It wasn't. First pull only regestered A/F ratio, so another 10min spraying brakekleen on the dyno's speed sensor and it worked. Made the pull. Was dissappointed and asked about tuning (the guy on the phone tole me between 125 and 200bucks and that they can do chipped LT-1's.) Well, they said they didn't think that they could tune it and the tunner wasn't there. They called him, he showed up a half hour later, and says he can do it but I'd have to come back as he whould probabally have to order an adapter and that all of his tuning equipment was at a buddys house 45mins away. Well I already had my mind made up that I wasn't making the hour long trip again but I asked about cost and he said $450 so I said not to worry about it. I went to pay for the dyno and the guy charged me $75. I said wait a minute, I was told $50 on the phone for 3-pulls and I only made two and one didn't even register (which don't matter b/c I didn't want anymore pulls, 1 was enough). Well I ended up paying $55 plus tax.
Sorry for the vent as I just got home and was a little upset as well as being dissappointed. I think I am going to tear the topend apart and take the front cover off just to check everything out.
Today was dyno day for me @ IPS motorsports.
It ran a very dissappointing 280 RWHP and 313 RWTQ And dropped off bigtime @ over 5000rpm It wont let me post attachments????
The A/F is way rich down low and spikes to lean @ 4500 and then levels out. The tuner (even though I didn't get it tuned) was pretty knowledgable. He said that there has got to be something else going on other than the tunning, like cam degree off, or something else???? He said that cam/head combo is a good one and should do 6600rpm and well over 400HP. He showed me an example of a 383 LT-1 with a 224/230XE and hand ported stock heads that made 390RWHP and pulled strong to 6000.
Overall it was informative but I wasn't impressed with the service I got. I made the appt last week and was told $50 for a baseline 3-pulls. Appt is for 10AM and I show up at 9:30 to get unloaded. It took them about 20min of messing with the computer to even get it to see that the dyno was hooked up. As he was warming up the car I mentioned about the speed not regestering and he said it would be okay. It wasn't. First pull only regestered A/F ratio, so another 10min spraying brakekleen on the dyno's speed sensor and it worked. Made the pull. Was dissappointed and asked about tuning (the guy on the phone tole me between 125 and 200bucks and that they can do chipped LT-1's.) Well, they said they didn't think that they could tune it and the tunner wasn't there. They called him, he showed up a half hour later, and says he can do it but I'd have to come back as he whould probabally have to order an adapter and that all of his tuning equipment was at a buddys house 45mins away. Well I already had my mind made up that I wasn't making the hour long trip again but I asked about cost and he said $450 so I said not to worry about it. I went to pay for the dyno and the guy charged me $75. I said wait a minute, I was told $50 on the phone for 3-pulls and I only made two and one didn't even register (which don't matter b/c I didn't want anymore pulls, 1 was enough). Well I ended up paying $55 plus tax.
Sorry for the vent as I just got home and was a little upset as well as being dissappointed. I think I am going to tear the topend apart and take the front cover off just to check everything out.