Dissappointed with track times
08-17-2009, 12:32 PM
#32
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: McAllen Tx. USA
Posts: 537
Sounds like my case, and it turned out to be crappy tuning. It its mechanical, just starting with a compression and leakdown test. Check if your tranny is strong too.
Is there any way you can see your tuning file, or if you have it send it to me and I will check it out and compare to mine. I can at the minimum get your fuel curve in the ball park. Send me a PM if interested.
Joe
Is there any way you can see your tuning file, or if you have it send it to me and I will check it out and compare to mine. I can at the minimum get your fuel curve in the ball park. Send me a PM if interested.
Joe
08-17-2009, 01:11 PM
#33
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
I have no way to get the timing curve. I did just tear apart the frone end since my last post and the cam degree is correct based on the cloyes DR sheet with the triangle being advanced, square being retard and circle being factory. I did set it up with the circle mark.
08-17-2009, 09:20 PM
#34
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
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Well I spen this evening tearing apart everything, going back to the basics.
I think I have solved the mystery. I believe that I have solid roller valve springs and they are stout enough to collapse the lifter and not get the full lift of the cam.
I had a buddy come over to degree the cam, bit we didn't make it that far. (He has been building motors since diapers). He noticed that none of the lifters looked like they were opening the valves very far. We took a head off, ran back to his place, pulled a spring off to check it (he has a lot more equipment than me).
Results: Seat pressure of 190 lbs
Pressure @ .560 480lbs
He said that in general a hyd roller should be ~120-130seat and 300-330 open. These are a double spring with a dampner, and when we removed the inner spring, we had 120 seat and 320@.560, so I think I am just going to remove the inner springs. The reason I used .560 is because I wasn't quite sure off the top of my head, which since I have been home have found the specs to be .544 and .555 w/1.6rr, but they are still the wrong spring.
I find it hard to believe that spring could cost 100+HP but he assured me that this is more than likely the problem. If so, I am only out a gasket kit and a lot of frustration. I hope it is as simple as this. But it really upsets me because I cant remember who I ordered the heads from over 5 years ago, but I am certain I would not have ordered them with solid roller springs.
I think I have solved the mystery. I believe that I have solid roller valve springs and they are stout enough to collapse the lifter and not get the full lift of the cam.
I had a buddy come over to degree the cam, bit we didn't make it that far. (He has been building motors since diapers). He noticed that none of the lifters looked like they were opening the valves very far. We took a head off, ran back to his place, pulled a spring off to check it (he has a lot more equipment than me).
Results: Seat pressure of 190 lbs
Pressure @ .560 480lbs
He said that in general a hyd roller should be ~120-130seat and 300-330 open. These are a double spring with a dampner, and when we removed the inner spring, we had 120 seat and 320@.560, so I think I am just going to remove the inner springs. The reason I used .560 is because I wasn't quite sure off the top of my head, which since I have been home have found the specs to be .544 and .555 w/1.6rr, but they are still the wrong spring.
I find it hard to believe that spring could cost 100+HP but he assured me that this is more than likely the problem. If so, I am only out a gasket kit and a lot of frustration. I hope it is as simple as this. But it really upsets me because I cant remember who I ordered the heads from over 5 years ago, but I am certain I would not have ordered them with solid roller springs.
08-18-2009, 05:54 PM
#35
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
Just another update.
I decided to pull the motor on out of the car to give it a going through, and the cam is not a 230/236xe cam. I am cery dissappointed and a little upset. The shop that built the first 396 for me, I had numerous problems with, but that is a story for another day. I had to rebuild the motor they built but reused the cam, which when they built it I specified the 230/236xe. Just covering all the basics, I called comp cams and gave them the #'s off the cam (that I thought was a 230/236), and it turns out that it is a 206/212, which is barely better than a stock cam. And I verified this with a dial indacator and a degree wheel on the lathe.
This will be the 3rd time re-doing this motor and hopefully 3rd time is the charm. It always seems to be something out of my control. Cam is not what it is supposed to be, canton oil pan crank scraper was rubbing on the crank and caused major problems, AFR heads had solid springs instead of hydraulic, etc.
That said, what do you guys reccomend for a camshaft for this motor??? I have not been able to find a 230/236xe anyhwere so I assume they quit making them. But I have seen the XFI cams in a 230/236 and bigger but they have way more lift. Would this cause a problem with 1.6 RR's?? With the springs I don't run into coil bind until .720 lift, but I was wondering about valve to piston clearence. Has anyone ran one of these cams with 1.6rr's??
I am trying to get buy without spending a fortune, and so far I am up to a cam, gasket sets, all bearings(while I'm in there I might as well), and a timing set. So what do you guys reccomend for a cam and do you have any other advice that might help me while I have the motor out and tore down???
I decided to pull the motor on out of the car to give it a going through, and the cam is not a 230/236xe cam. I am cery dissappointed and a little upset. The shop that built the first 396 for me, I had numerous problems with, but that is a story for another day. I had to rebuild the motor they built but reused the cam, which when they built it I specified the 230/236xe. Just covering all the basics, I called comp cams and gave them the #'s off the cam (that I thought was a 230/236), and it turns out that it is a 206/212, which is barely better than a stock cam. And I verified this with a dial indacator and a degree wheel on the lathe.
This will be the 3rd time re-doing this motor and hopefully 3rd time is the charm. It always seems to be something out of my control. Cam is not what it is supposed to be, canton oil pan crank scraper was rubbing on the crank and caused major problems, AFR heads had solid springs instead of hydraulic, etc.
That said, what do you guys reccomend for a camshaft for this motor??? I have not been able to find a 230/236xe anyhwere so I assume they quit making them. But I have seen the XFI cams in a 230/236 and bigger but they have way more lift. Would this cause a problem with 1.6 RR's?? With the springs I don't run into coil bind until .720 lift, but I was wondering about valve to piston clearence. Has anyone ran one of these cams with 1.6rr's??
I am trying to get buy without spending a fortune, and so far I am up to a cam, gasket sets, all bearings(while I'm in there I might as well), and a timing set. So what do you guys reccomend for a cam and do you have any other advice that might help me while I have the motor out and tore down???
08-18-2009, 08:40 PM
#36
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North Platte, NE
Posts: 181
Thunder Racing has that cam if that's the cam you want (63-230/236-112). Keep in mind it's not listed with 1.6 rr lift numbers. It shows specs at .510/.520 with 1.5 rr's, with 1.6rr it would be .544/.555. I had this cam in my last motor. Not enough for a 396 in my opinion.
The XFI cams list their specs with 1.6 rr's.
I've never used a XFI cam, but I would personally like to see my cam in a 396. It's a little hefty for my 355, but it works.
You're going to want something in the .24x/.24x or .25x range for that 396. Golen Engines specialized in 396's. I would give them a call and tell them your setup and he would probably spec you out a cam. Real nice guy to deal with.
The XFI cams list their specs with 1.6 rr's.
I've never used a XFI cam, but I would personally like to see my cam in a 396. It's a little hefty for my 355, but it works.
You're going to want something in the .24x/.24x or .25x range for that 396. Golen Engines specialized in 396's. I would give them a call and tell them your setup and he would probably spec you out a cam. Real nice guy to deal with.
08-19-2009, 06:46 AM
#38
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
The XFI cams that I have seen say lift with factory rockers, and they are in the .58x range on lift.
Everyone says I need a bigger cam so what do you guys suggest. If the XFI's will work with the 1.6rr's what do you think about the 242/248??
Everyone says I need a bigger cam so what do you guys suggest. If the XFI's will work with the 1.6rr's what do you think about the 242/248??
08-20-2009, 06:28 PM
#41
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
Well I got everything appart and cleaned up, the crank is at the shop getting ground right now. I have just a couple of other questions.
What do you guys reccomend for a good main and rod bearings. It had clevite P-series for the mains and the H-series for the rods, but was wondering if there is anything else as good for maybe less money, or something better for the same money??
What is a good source for a performance gasket kit without spending a fortune and getting all the stuff that I dont need like freeze plugs, o-rings for injuctors, TB gasket, ERG, etc. The only gaskets that I absolutly need are Heads, Timing cover/WP, and oil pan.
Also what I had on it was the 1074 gasket, but was wondering your opinions on the thinner mr. gasket brand. The extra compression wouldn't hurt, but was wondering if they seal as good??
What do you guys reccomend for a good main and rod bearings. It had clevite P-series for the mains and the H-series for the rods, but was wondering if there is anything else as good for maybe less money, or something better for the same money??
What is a good source for a performance gasket kit without spending a fortune and getting all the stuff that I dont need like freeze plugs, o-rings for injuctors, TB gasket, ERG, etc. The only gaskets that I absolutly need are Heads, Timing cover/WP, and oil pan.
Also what I had on it was the 1074 gasket, but was wondering your opinions on the thinner mr. gasket brand. The extra compression wouldn't hurt, but was wondering if they seal as good??
08-22-2009, 07:47 AM
#43
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North Platte, NE
Posts: 181
Go to ThunderRacing.com, you can get all the gaskets you need there. I personally would stick with the 1074 Felpro head gasket. Excellent head gaskets in my opinion. You could call LE for a cam, but you don't have his heads. Although he does have some what you would call shelf cams on his site that you can purchase, that would probably work well.
08-28-2009, 06:06 PM
#44
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 38
Another update. Crankshaft has been done. .020 off mains and .030 off rods and .010 off thrust face. I still don't know what bearings I am going to buy yet. I have heard bad things about federal mogule and had clevites in it and have heard good about them. I was wodering if the H series are worth the extra $$$ over the P's. It had P's on the mains and H's on the rods and they both did about the same amount of damage to the crank so are they worth the extra $$$?????
Also I got a camshaft. Got a good deal on a custom grind direct from comp that they had on the shelf that someone had them make and then didn't want. Only $150. It is a 242/248 with .54x lift with 1.5rr. which gives me about .58x with the 1.6rr. 113LSA +4 with a .900base circle ground on a billet core.
The question I have is, is the stock oil pump drive gear up to a billet camshaft or do I need a bronze gear?????????
Also I got a camshaft. Got a good deal on a custom grind direct from comp that they had on the shelf that someone had them make and then didn't want. Only $150. It is a 242/248 with .54x lift with 1.5rr. which gives me about .58x with the 1.6rr. 113LSA +4 with a .900base circle ground on a billet core.
The question I have is, is the stock oil pump drive gear up to a billet camshaft or do I need a bronze gear?????????
08-29-2009, 01:37 PM
#45
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
It depends on what cam core you have. Some/most billet cores now have a pressed on cast iron gear and the cam is actually 2/3 pieces. If thats the case no need to do anything different. If the cam core is 1 piece you will need a different material for the oil pump drive gear. It will be obvious from looking what material the gear is made from on your cam.