Help with 400+ rwhp Budget rebuild
07-25-2008, 09:31 AM
#1
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Help with 400+ rwhp Budget rebuild
Out of nowhere Wed nigh my oil pressure suddenly dropped from 60 to zero while coasting thru a parking garage. Started it up later to hear what I believe to be knock, so a rebuild may be in order. As much as I REALLY want to do a 383 build, I'm really not wanting to drop that kind of money into my car right now, especially with 17 mth old twin boys at home. However, I do need to get my car back on the road.
I was thinking of rebuilding my current motor with stock rods and crank, but with .030 over forged pistons, ARP main studs (is a 4-bolt block already), ARP rods bolts, etc. I also already have "Stage 2" ported 195cc heads, flow 260 or so intake range (from unknown porter), 1.7 Angus Racing rockers (can switch to 1.6 if needed). I was thinking 12.0 compression to help with running E85, while still allowing me to switch back to 93 gas tune if needed. Would an LE2 cam (or 2.2, etc) get me in the 400-420 rwhp range reliably with this setup while keeping costs low? Should I have the heads upgraded to LE3, or should my heads be ok?
I was thinking of rebuilding my current motor with stock rods and crank, but with .030 over forged pistons, ARP main studs (is a 4-bolt block already), ARP rods bolts, etc. I also already have "Stage 2" ported 195cc heads, flow 260 or so intake range (from unknown porter), 1.7 Angus Racing rockers (can switch to 1.6 if needed). I was thinking 12.0 compression to help with running E85, while still allowing me to switch back to 93 gas tune if needed. Would an LE2 cam (or 2.2, etc) get me in the 400-420 rwhp range reliably with this setup while keeping costs low? Should I have the heads upgraded to LE3, or should my heads be ok?
07-25-2008, 10:08 AM
#2
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did you have the heads flow tested or is that just what they told you they flowed?just asking cause if they do flow that well then a 2.2 cam would but you in that ranged with a 58mm throttle body,injectors,and duels.our old LE2 car put down 383rwhp through a 9in,viper main shaft,and 3in steel driveshaft so you should be able to do it man.
07-25-2008, 10:59 AM
#3
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When I pull them off I'll have them flowed and I guess decide if more porting is needed from there. What would be flow rate I would want for 400+rwhp w/LE2 cam? As far as the rest of the setup, does that sound like a good plan?
07-25-2008, 01:08 PM
#5
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Just put the stock pistons back in with new rings and a hone if the bores arent too worn out. Any of the budget forged pistons are going to be heavy as hell and make it cost quite a bit to balance the assembly again. The stock lt1 piston and rod assembly is pretty light weight. The only forged pistons I would probably use is the mahle powerpacks if you're sticking to a stock crank. Have your rod bolts changed to arp's, but if you have to change pistons i would go ahead and put some scat rods with 7/16 cap screws in it. You're going to rebalance it anyways at that point so you might as well have some good rods and fasteners.
Having said all that, If you have the money STROKE IT. You will in no way regret the extra cubes and when its back together you will always wonder about if you had done it and regret it. Cast cranks are very cheap and can take the abuse you will throw at it pretty easily. You dont have to jump to a fully forged lightweight setup like so many do. Even the stock rotating assembly has proven to take 400+rwhp a crapload of times.
Dont chase compression, it will give you fun like knock retard and pinging on pump gas. I have a hard enough time with 11.5 with the ****ty gas around here in the summer which is why I also run e-85. Compression is not the end all of hp anyways, it just gives you a bit of a boost at part throttle and a better idle.
Post the sheet when you have the heads flowed, and tell us how much you drive the car etc and how much traffic you hit and your tolorence for a big thumping idle. Fitting what you have and how you want to drive the car is a HUGE part of selecting a cam. It is much more important than "I want to make 400rwhp". I will tell you what I know about having a 400+rwhp car, if its set up right you will break the law and be up somebodies *** in traffic constantly and that is driving very easily. If you sit in traffic the big idle that screams hot rod will begin to give you a throbbing headache if you drive in much traffic every day. Also with a large cam your idle is really going to begin to stink (literally) its just because of how the stock pcm handles the fueling. Therse ways around it to lessen it but its still going to smell horrible.
I would also go to 1.6 or even
1.5 rockers.
Having said all that, If you have the money STROKE IT. You will in no way regret the extra cubes and when its back together you will always wonder about if you had done it and regret it. Cast cranks are very cheap and can take the abuse you will throw at it pretty easily. You dont have to jump to a fully forged lightweight setup like so many do. Even the stock rotating assembly has proven to take 400+rwhp a crapload of times.
Dont chase compression, it will give you fun like knock retard and pinging on pump gas. I have a hard enough time with 11.5 with the ****ty gas around here in the summer which is why I also run e-85. Compression is not the end all of hp anyways, it just gives you a bit of a boost at part throttle and a better idle.
Post the sheet when you have the heads flowed, and tell us how much you drive the car etc and how much traffic you hit and your tolorence for a big thumping idle. Fitting what you have and how you want to drive the car is a HUGE part of selecting a cam. It is much more important than "I want to make 400rwhp". I will tell you what I know about having a 400+rwhp car, if its set up right you will break the law and be up somebodies *** in traffic constantly and that is driving very easily. If you sit in traffic the big idle that screams hot rod will begin to give you a throbbing headache if you drive in much traffic every day. Also with a large cam your idle is really going to begin to stink (literally) its just because of how the stock pcm handles the fueling. Therse ways around it to lessen it but its still going to smell horrible.
I would also go to 1.6 or even
1.5 rockers.
Last edited by WS6T3RROR; 07-25-2008 at 01:14 PM.
07-25-2008, 02:29 PM
#6
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I would send the heads to llyod so he can do clean up/ touch ups to them. Chances are they only need a little bit to get you over 400rw. Also have your intake manifold opened up for a 58mm tb and some light porting (mainly just matching up the heads and intake).
If you want 400rwhp your going to need a decent sized cam. A le2 should do it, but you can tell llyod what you want out of it and he will deliver. A supporting valvetrain and exhaust will be required, LT's, very good springs, etc.
As for the bottom end, i would try and get away with a hone and re use the stock parts. with fresh rings and bearings you should be fine reving to 6800rpms. **** half the guys on here do it stock. You already have the 4 bolt so rpms wont be an issue.
THe only reason for some forged pistons would be for a 150 or larger hit. Than you would want the rings gapped for it too. Compression, dont go much above 11.5.1 or on 93 you may run into issues and the last thing you want it to rebuild it again.
As for fuel and spark, a in tank 255 and some 37lb injectors should do ya fine. A aftermarket ign box would be nice but not required. Than theres the good old 10 bolt, if you race it i would start thinking what you wana do there. If not just some 3.73/4.10's a solid pinion spacer, and a good TA cover will work.
The stock parts in the bottom end and the fact that you shouldnt need much headwork should keep the costs down. Keep an eye on the FS section for random parts your going to need.
Good luck here bud, just dont sell it. Think of it as your 3rd son.
If you want 400rwhp your going to need a decent sized cam. A le2 should do it, but you can tell llyod what you want out of it and he will deliver. A supporting valvetrain and exhaust will be required, LT's, very good springs, etc.
As for the bottom end, i would try and get away with a hone and re use the stock parts. with fresh rings and bearings you should be fine reving to 6800rpms. **** half the guys on here do it stock. You already have the 4 bolt so rpms wont be an issue.
THe only reason for some forged pistons would be for a 150 or larger hit. Than you would want the rings gapped for it too. Compression, dont go much above 11.5.1 or on 93 you may run into issues and the last thing you want it to rebuild it again.
As for fuel and spark, a in tank 255 and some 37lb injectors should do ya fine. A aftermarket ign box would be nice but not required. Than theres the good old 10 bolt, if you race it i would start thinking what you wana do there. If not just some 3.73/4.10's a solid pinion spacer, and a good TA cover will work.
The stock parts in the bottom end and the fact that you shouldnt need much headwork should keep the costs down. Keep an eye on the FS section for random parts your going to need.
Good luck here bud, just dont sell it. Think of it as your 3rd son.
Last edited by slomarao; 07-31-2008 at 09:04 AM.
07-25-2008, 08:40 PM
#7
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Ok, let me ask this. IF I do go 383, it will be with a cast crank, and I-beam rods. My uses for this motor will be mainly street use, with a few autocrosses every year and maybe 1 or 2 1/8th mile "test n tune" nights each year. If I stay 350/355, I would shoot for 400+ rwhp, if 383, probably shoot for 420+ rwhp. This is NEVER intending to use nitrous or boost and keeping RPM's <6800 (and less with 383)and studding the 4-bolt mains. Would a cast 383 crank and I-beam rods hold up reliably to this type of setup, without me having to worry if it is going to break? Also, would I need forged pistons, or would hyperutectic pistons be a reliable and effective choice since staying street and NA? Reliability and cost are the main concerns here, I need this build to last a few more years while not breaking my budget.
07-26-2008, 12:49 AM
#8
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You should be fine with all that. I have several cast crank non lt1 383's spinning 7k n/a making 560-580fwhp. I have mahle forged pistons a reworked eagle cast crank and a set of i beam rods with 7/16 cap screws in my 355. I touch 7k on the shifts and have for probably 60 passes and 20k miles. Having said that, the autox will put a huge strain on the crank perhaps more than it can handle. I know when I do circle track engines cast cranks break like dry twigs. The only thing i use there is callies now. Although people typically dont hang the rpms at 7000 on an autox course like they do on a circle track.
As long as you dont ping too bad or get it too far out of shape in the tune up hyper pistons will hold up as well and be quiet and durable. The thing you have to concern yourself with is if something does go half wrong hyper pistons like to just explode and leave nothing but the pin hanging from the rod
.
I still think your hp goal is too high for something that is mostly street. Its going to take a big cam and alot of rpms for it to do it. You will probably not be to happy with it when you get stuck behind mini-vans and people who are scared to use the long pedal on the right. Build it for what you use it for not drive in bragging rights. Really good heads and a nice small well designed cam is the way to go on the street. Dont worry its the last time i say anything about that.
As long as you dont ping too bad or get it too far out of shape in the tune up hyper pistons will hold up as well and be quiet and durable. The thing you have to concern yourself with is if something does go half wrong hyper pistons like to just explode and leave nothing but the pin hanging from the rod
.I still think your hp goal is too high for something that is mostly street. Its going to take a big cam and alot of rpms for it to do it. You will probably not be to happy with it when you get stuck behind mini-vans and people who are scared to use the long pedal on the right. Build it for what you use it for not drive in bragging rights. Really good heads and a nice small well designed cam is the way to go on the street. Dont worry its the last time i say anything about that.
07-26-2008, 01:37 PM
#9
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After looking at costs vs budget, I think a 355 is in order, reconditioning the stock rods/crank and .030 over pistons, decking the block say .010, and going with some high quality bearings, maybe coated. Depending on the flow of my heads, I may get a little more portwork done (LE3?), but only if it's needed. What would be a safe max compression to run? I will primarily use E85, but would like to be able to switch back to 93 premium gas if it becomes neccesary.
07-30-2008, 04:37 PM
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Like I said this is mostly a street motor other than occasional autox and for making 400rwhp reliably would I be ok with a Scat 3.75 cast crank using stock rods and hyper pistons? My heads will most likely be upgraded to LE3 either way (355 or 383). If the 383 will make the same power but keep the revs lower and still be ok with the above mentioned parts should I go that route? I am just thinking if I can boost the torque and bring the revs lower with the same power band and within low price range, I may do that? I just want experienced, no BS advice.
07-30-2008, 07:42 PM
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You seem dead set on a 383, so might as well do it. Get a Scat cast crank and i-beam rods, cost of reconditioning stock rods is about the same and you can go to bushed rods instead of press fit rods like the stock ones. Pistons, any are good but I'm partial to Wiseco or Ross. You should be able to get all that done for around $1500 with assembly. H/C is up to you, but definitely get the cam you want in there cause it's a lot easier to do a head swap than a cam swap. In all of the above I would buy used if I could.
My old setup was just under 400 using a LE1 setup with a 355 so you don't have to go hog wild with LE3 stuff to reach your goal since budget is a concern. Get some heads that flow around 270-280 and a mid 220 or low 230 cam and you'll be fine.
My old setup was just under 400 using a LE1 setup with a 355 so you don't have to go hog wild with LE3 stuff to reach your goal since budget is a concern. Get some heads that flow around 270-280 and a mid 220 or low 230 cam and you'll be fine.
Last edited by ulakovic22; 07-30-2008 at 07:46 PM.
07-31-2008, 09:22 AM
#12
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I dont think your too high on your power expectations, I would also say that you could achieve the numbers your looking for with le2's. Have llyod do the heads, intake and pick you out a cam.
If you are going to race it things will change. A autox motor has to be built for it and something you plan for street use wouldnt really be ideal.
For the bottom end you need to figure out what your going to do. If you use all stock parts (arp bolts in the rods) you will have money left over for le3's. If you build the 383 your bottom end will soak up a lot of your budget. But than you ll have the extra tq so you wont need all the hp. So theres two sides to that coin. Saying which setup is going to be better is something hard to do, no matter how much experience you have. So its really on you, as far as what you really want out of the motor.
When you send your heads to llyod talk to him about your goals and budget, he will have some good insight. Considering he does this for a living.
A old time rule of thumb, that any car guy should know: When building a motor buy the best HEADS you can afford. They will hold the potential of the motor. If i were you get le3's.
but also you kinda want to have a bottom end in mind when picking out top end parts(a 355 cam and 383 cam much different grinds). So you need to figure out what your going to do. I would rebuild it on stock parts, new rings/bearings, and a hone. Than the le3 top end. But thats me, I not building the motor nor is it my car.
If you are going to race it things will change. A autox motor has to be built for it and something you plan for street use wouldnt really be ideal.
For the bottom end you need to figure out what your going to do. If you use all stock parts (arp bolts in the rods) you will have money left over for le3's. If you build the 383 your bottom end will soak up a lot of your budget. But than you ll have the extra tq so you wont need all the hp. So theres two sides to that coin. Saying which setup is going to be better is something hard to do, no matter how much experience you have. So its really on you, as far as what you really want out of the motor.
When you send your heads to llyod talk to him about your goals and budget, he will have some good insight. Considering he does this for a living.
A old time rule of thumb, that any car guy should know: When building a motor buy the best HEADS you can afford. They will hold the potential of the motor. If i were you get le3's.
but also you kinda want to have a bottom end in mind when picking out top end parts(a 355 cam and 383 cam much different grinds). So you need to figure out what your going to do. I would rebuild it on stock parts, new rings/bearings, and a hone. Than the le3 top end. But thats me, I not building the motor nor is it my car.
Last edited by slomarao; 07-31-2008 at 03:49 PM.
08-05-2008, 09:08 AM
#13
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Well I ended up getting a deal on a Scat 3.75 cast crank so I went ahead and got that. I may end up getting an old Toyota 4x4 from the in-laws, if so, my TA will no longer be a daily driver, rather a nice day/weekend car. So, I may setup the motor strictly for E85, with around 13:1 compression, and keep the other goals the same, LE3 heads (if needed depending on flow of mine), forged I-beams, either hyper or forged pistons (if needed). There are 2 stations within about 5 miles, one on my way to/from work.
08-05-2008, 09:22 AM
#14
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Forged pistons would be good idea. I think your walking on thin ice with 13.1 compression, especially if your ever had to run pump 93. I would say 11.8.1 would be as high as i would go but this is your motor and not mine.
I would push you to go for the le3's. If you want 420rwhp and 400rwtq+ the le3's will make it just that much easier to do. With a le3 head you will be able to run less cam to still reach your goals. Which will help out big time in the driveability dept.
Your are going to need a 58mm tb and have the stock intake manifold opened up. You dont need to do anything to the block if its already a 4 bolt. Its fine as is.
I would push you to go for the le3's. If you want 420rwhp and 400rwtq+ the le3's will make it just that much easier to do. With a le3 head you will be able to run less cam to still reach your goals. Which will help out big time in the driveability dept.
Your are going to need a 58mm tb and have the stock intake manifold opened up. You dont need to do anything to the block if its already a 4 bolt. Its fine as is.
08-05-2008, 10:01 AM
#15
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Just put the stock pistons back in with new rings and a hone if the bores arent too worn out. Any of the budget forged pistons are going to be heavy as hell and make it cost quite a bit to balance the assembly again. The stock lt1 piston and rod assembly is pretty light weight. The only forged pistons I would probably use is the mahle powerpacks if you're sticking to a stock crank. Have your rod bolts changed to arp's, but if you have to change pistons i would go ahead and put some scat rods with 7/16 cap screws in it. You're going to rebalance it anyways at that point so you might as well have some good rods and fasteners.
Having said all that, If you have the money STROKE IT. You will in no way regret the extra cubes and when its back together you will always wonder about if you had done it and regret it. Cast cranks are very cheap and can take the abuse you will throw at it pretty easily. You dont have to jump to a fully forged lightweight setup like so many do. Even the stock rotating assembly has proven to take 400+rwhp a crapload of times.
Dont chase compression, it will give you fun like knock retard and pinging on pump gas. I have a hard enough time with 11.5 with the ****ty gas around here in the summer which is why I also run e-85. Compression is not the end all of hp anyways, it just gives you a bit of a boost at part throttle and a better idle.
Post the sheet when you have the heads flowed, and tell us how much you drive the car etc and how much traffic you hit and your tolorence for a big thumping idle. Fitting what you have and how you want to drive the car is a HUGE part of selecting a cam. It is much more important than "I want to make 400rwhp". I will tell you what I know about having a 400+rwhp car, if its set up right you will break the law and be up somebodies *** in traffic constantly and that is driving very easily. If you sit in traffic the big idle that screams hot rod will begin to give you a throbbing headache if you drive in much traffic every day. Also with a large cam your idle is really going to begin to stink (literally) its just because of how the stock pcm handles the fueling. Therse ways around it to lessen it but its still going to smell horrible.
I would also go to 1.6 or even 1.5 rockers.
Having said all that, If you have the money STROKE IT. You will in no way regret the extra cubes and when its back together you will always wonder about if you had done it and regret it. Cast cranks are very cheap and can take the abuse you will throw at it pretty easily. You dont have to jump to a fully forged lightweight setup like so many do. Even the stock rotating assembly has proven to take 400+rwhp a crapload of times.
Dont chase compression, it will give you fun like knock retard and pinging on pump gas. I have a hard enough time with 11.5 with the ****ty gas around here in the summer which is why I also run e-85. Compression is not the end all of hp anyways, it just gives you a bit of a boost at part throttle and a better idle.
Post the sheet when you have the heads flowed, and tell us how much you drive the car etc and how much traffic you hit and your tolorence for a big thumping idle. Fitting what you have and how you want to drive the car is a HUGE part of selecting a cam. It is much more important than "I want to make 400rwhp". I will tell you what I know about having a 400+rwhp car, if its set up right you will break the law and be up somebodies *** in traffic constantly and that is driving very easily. If you sit in traffic the big idle that screams hot rod will begin to give you a throbbing headache if you drive in much traffic every day. Also with a large cam your idle is really going to begin to stink (literally) its just because of how the stock pcm handles the fueling. Therse ways around it to lessen it but its still going to smell horrible.
I would also go to 1.6 or even
1.5 rockers.LT1s love high CR. 12.1:1+ is fine on pump gas if you have a good dyno tune. DCR is really what is important - not just SCR - and that will depend a lot on the cam you are using, not just the pistons and chamber cc's.