Somebody kill me now!

I hope you can help me find the cause of this issue because if my wife calls me one more time that she can't get the car started while I am in Europe on business I am going to go bananas!

When I attempt to start the car, there is a small but detectable delay between the click of the solenoid and the starter cranking. About 1 out of every 10 attempts (varies), I only get a click, but no crank. After a few more attempts, the starter cranks and sometimes if I just hold the key in the start position, after about 5-10 seconds, the starter suddenly cranks.

I have replaced the starter, solenoid, battery, battery cables (both), ignition switch and VATS relay. I have also cleaned all the ground connections under the hood and on the block and the 12V connections in the power distribution block next to the battery.

The security light is not lighting when the problem occurs and the VATS relay engages every time so I do not suspect a VATS module or key cylinder problem.

When I apply battery voltage directly to the solenoid terminal of the starter, it cranks but since the problem is intermittent, I am not sure this proves anything.

I have also jumpered out the VATS relay and still experienced the problem. I also have a starter kill relay installed but still have the problem even when this is removed.

I believe I have examined every connection and replaced every part in the circuit. The only thing left is the fusible link. Does anybody have any suggestions. I am desperate!

Thanks,

Jeff

 

Check the small wire to the solenoid on the starter it might be broken. If not man I don't know I would have guessed starter or ign. switch.

 

IF it's an A4 replace the neutral safety switch,if it is a stick replace the clutch switch.

 

is it just one click or several clicks when you try to crank it

 

It is an A4 and it just clicks one time. I spent several hours testing it yesterday and only 1 time did it show the problem while I had a volt meter connected to the circuit.

It is exhibiting the same symptom with the new starter as the old one so I don't think it would be a problem with the solenoid jumper wire.

I was measuring the voltage drop across different sections of the solenoid circuit while cranking to see if I could narrow down the section with the problem. The problem is that it is intermittent so all tests look OK.

I measured the voltage drop from the solenoid connection on the starter to the positive battery terminal. During cranking, it is about a 1 volt drop which doesn't sound too high given the guage of the wire. I also measured about 11 volts at the solenoid terminal to ground during cranking.

The only time the no crank problem happened during my test, I measured 5.9 volts from the positive battery terminal to the solenoid terminal so I believe there is some intermittent bad connection but I can't isolate where it is.

I am going crazy trying to find this problem. Do you have any ideas???

Thanks,

Jeff

 

Check the theft deterrent relay. First pull it out of the socket and reseat it, then give it another try. Make sure you're getting a good ground to pin 86 but only when the key is turned to the crank position. Then confirm the presence of 12 volts when you crank it on pin 85 and 30. Last thing to do is confirm the relay is closing. You can do that out of the circuit with 12 volts and ground on 85 and 86. With voltage and ground on those 2 pins(doesn't matter which is on 85 and which is on 86), confirm the continuity from pin 30 to 87.

Let us know what you find.

 

I have tested the theft deterrent relay a couple of times. I am getting 12 volts on both the yellow and purple wire on either side of the relay contacts when cranking. I have removed and reseated the relay 5 or 6 times. Once when I was holding a jumper wire across the relay socket, the problem occurred so I am pretty sure it is not the relay itself. Also, I can feel the relay click everytime so I believe the park switch on the trans is working but I did not measure the voltage drop across the switch itself. I will check that to make sure it is a good connection but as I said, the relay is clicking consistently.

Yesterday I switched the relay with the trunk release relay just to make sure. Sometimes it takes a day or two before the problem reoccurs.

Thanks for all your help so far.... I am wondering if I have an intermittent connection inside the fusible link. I might try replacing that...

 

not sure if this helps or even if this is your probelm, but my brother has 2002 exepetion and his car has a similar probelm to yours.
his occurs about the same times that yours does but his does click his makes a different noise and will take a few trys to get it to start.
we were told that he has a tooth or two worn or broken off on his flywheel.
my guess is that when the flywheel is in the right position it makes this noise and doesnt crank.

once again i have no clue if this could be the same but if else fails with not check it.

 

That is interesting. I am not hearing any grinding and it does not sound like the starter pinion is attempting to engage but I will verify this. I changed the VATS relay with the hood release relay (they are the same part) and I bypassed my starter kill relay just to be sure they are not the cause. It has been this way for a couple of days but the car has not been used much so it is too early to tell if this made a difference.

 

Sounds like if your dropping voltage to the solenoid but you measured good voltage at the relay, (purple wire) and it did it when you had a jumper from the yellow to the purple wire. The problem has to be along the purple wire to the solenoid and I'll bet it's the C210 connector. The purple wire passes through a 4 pin black connector under the right hand kick panel.

While you're there, ohm out the purple wire on each side of the connector.

Uh I just realized you didn't mention if you checked the ground strap from the frame to the engine?????? yes/no

 

I did clean and retighten the ground strap between the engine and chassis. No signs of an obvious problem there.

I took voltage drop measurements along the entire circuit with one probe on the solenoid terminal. Each measurement was done while cranking (good way to stink up the garage with gas fumes! ). From the positive battery terminal, I was getting about 1 volt drop to the solenoid. As I get closer to the solenoid, the voltage drop gets progressively smaller as you would expect. Only one time did the problem occur (click but no crank) while I was measuring voltage and I happened to have the probes at the two end points (battery terminal and solenoid terminal). For just an instant, I saw a 5.9 volt drop instead of the normal 1 volt drop. Unfortunately I can't repeat the issue often enough to isolate what part of the circuit experienced the intermittent voltage drop.

I did reseat the 4 pin connector you mentioned behind the right side kick panel and I measure the voltage drop from either side of the connector to the solenoid terminal and it was very small (around 0.1 Volt) so I believe the connection is good but I did make this measurement after reseating it so maybe I helped the problem by reseating the connector.

Since we have been enjoying torential rains in South Jersey, I haven't driven the car for a few days so I haven't seen the problem since I bypassed the ignition kill relay and switched the VATS relay.

What I know for sure now is that the problem is in the solenoid circuit and it is intermitttent. I have replaced all of the parts and cleaned all of the connections so the problem must be either in a connector or in a wire.

I appreciate the ideas so far. I could write a book on troubleshooting the starter circuit after this one!

Jeff

 

Mine does that, but it is a voltage arc at the distribution block between the two terminals.

 

Well it has been several weeks now and the car is starting fine. This means it is either the VATS relay or the starter kill relay in my alarm system. I already sent the alarm back for repair and I assumed it was fixed properly so I started suspecting other things. Now I think they didn't fix it after all. I am going to reconnect the starter kill relay to see if the problem comes back. Stay tuned....

 

Just an update to this issue...

I received the alarm module (with ignition kill) and reinstalled again. The problem appeared to be gone for a couple of weeks and then came back again! I started to suspect the connections to the module since the manufacturer had replaced the entire relay in the module and the problem still occurred.

I used the crimp on terminals (male and female) that press together. Well wouldn't you know it, by replacing them with the crimp barrel style connectors, the problem seems to be solved.

So what have I learned? DO NOT USE crimp style push on connectors for power applications. These are sometimes OK for audio applications (soldering is much better) but they have too much resistance for use where current really matters. By having two set of these connectors in series in the crank circuit (one set on the input side and one on the output side of the starter kill relay), there was just a little too much resistance to get full voltage to the starter relay resulting in an intermittent no crank condition.

Hope my experience helps somebody else.

Jeff

 

Hi,
I had exactly the same problem on a 1993 V6 Camaro a couple of years ago.The problem started after I had an after-market alarm/immobiliser fitted.
Some times the starter would work first turn of the key other times it would just make a single clicking sound.
I had the starter replaced with a genuine GM brand new unit and everything seemed fine,then a week later the problem was back.I replaced the battery,had all the wiring,earth connections checked,had the alarm wiring checked.The only thing my local mechanic could find was an intermittent voltage drop but he couldn't explain why it was occuring.
I traded the car in soon after and never did solve the problem.
If it's any help I can fully understand your frustration,this problem is annoying as hell,best regards,Mark Brand.