I want LE2 or AI heads. Need some advice.
09-29-2008, 02:16 PM
#16
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Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
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I went to LE's sight to compare the components of his LT1 TFS heads to the AI's for a direct comparison on the parts used by each company. I can not fnd this info on LE's site but it is on AI's. This would be very helpful in determining on a COST basis what the differences are.
Then there is the performance factor that does come with a cost, it's up to the consumer to decide what that factor is worth but if you compare the AI product to the LE product, AI has consistanly proven to have an advantage where it counts-this is determined by each consumer as well, Dyno numbers, Track MPH and ET, Driveability, Longevity, etc.
http://www.advancedinduction.com/AiProductsLT1.html
Then there is the performance factor that does come with a cost, it's up to the consumer to decide what that factor is worth but if you compare the AI product to the LE product, AI has consistanly proven to have an advantage where it counts-this is determined by each consumer as well, Dyno numbers, Track MPH and ET, Driveability, Longevity, etc.
http://www.advancedinduction.com/AiProductsLT1.html
Shon, I have made it a point to never trust somebody on car forums who says that one product is better than another without also providing proof. Can you please show me some specific scenarios or comparisons where AI products made significantly more power than LE's. In the meantime I will do a search. This may determine which route I go since I haven't actually placed my order yet.
09-29-2008, 02:52 PM
#17
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Shon, I have made it a point to never trust somebody on car forums who says that one product is better than another without also providing proof. Can you please show me some specific scenarios or comparisons where AI products made significantly more power than LE's. In the meantime I will do a search. This may determine which route I go since I haven't actually placed my order yet.
I really dont think you will find any proof that AI's are better than LE's. Each individual application will be different.
09-29-2008, 02:54 PM
#18
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09-29-2008, 03:01 PM
#19
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There are tons of examples of the LE product vs AI product on this forum and many others, surely there is a set up that is close enough to compare.
I can do the search just as you can.
I think the link to AI's website says alot of what the product can do. Does LE have the same stats for everyone to see?
I can do the search just as you can.
I think the link to AI's website says alot of what the product can do. Does LE have the same stats for everyone to see?
09-29-2008, 03:02 PM
#20
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The LE's will come with ferrea 2.02/1.60 valves, patriot gold extreme springs, ti retainers and locks, locators, and a seals. It's pretty basic. I am going to do some more inquiring about the exact details but it's doesn't seem like there is that much of a difference.
Shon, I have made it a point to never trust somebody on car forums who says that one product is better than another without also providing proof. Can you please show me some specific scenarios or comparisons where AI products made significantly more power than LE's. In the meantime I will do a search. This may determine which route I go since I haven't actually placed my order yet.
Shon, I have made it a point to never trust somebody on car forums who says that one product is better than another without also providing proof. Can you please show me some specific scenarios or comparisons where AI products made significantly more power than LE's. In the meantime I will do a search. This may determine which route I go since I haven't actually placed my order yet.
09-29-2008, 03:32 PM
#21
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There are tons of examples of the LE product vs AI product on this forum and many others, surely there is a set up that is close enough to compare.
I can do the search just as you can.
I think the link to AI's website says alot of what the product can do. Does LE have the same stats for everyone to see?
I can do the search just as you can.
I think the link to AI's website says alot of what the product can do. Does LE have the same stats for everyone to see?
All I am saying is why should I pay more for the AI's. I am asking you for good solid reasoning as to why I should pay more to have the heads done by AI. As you know from our PM's I'm already way bucks my budget on the heads, but I know that ported trickflows are the way to go and I will regret not getting them. Why should I fork over that much more for AI? I honestly don't know that's why I am asking. I will also contact AI and talk to them personally.
09-29-2008, 05:22 PM
#23
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Just FYI these are ALL cars running Ai parts:
Fastest GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - 10.89 @ 127.9mph w/ 200cc Heads & 227deg HR
Fastest NA GM LT1 headed F-Body - 9.88 @ 138.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR on 93 octane
Fastest Power Adder GM LT1 headed F-body - 9.8 @ 156.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & 218deg HR
Fastest NA Impala SS @ 3880lb - 10.7's @ 126mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR
Fastest 4k+ lb GM Stock Shortblock B-Body - 11.9's @ 113mph
Most Powerful GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - M6, HR, 453rwhp SAE
Most Powerful GM LT1 Headed - Turbo 355 - 1012rwhp SAE
Most Powerful NA GM LT1 Headed- NA 383 A4 - 552rwhp SAE
Fastest GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - 10.89 @ 127.9mph w/ 200cc Heads & 227deg HR
Fastest NA GM LT1 headed F-Body - 9.88 @ 138.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR on 93 octane
Fastest Power Adder GM LT1 headed F-body - 9.8 @ 156.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & 218deg HR
Fastest NA Impala SS @ 3880lb - 10.7's @ 126mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR
Fastest 4k+ lb GM Stock Shortblock B-Body - 11.9's @ 113mph
Most Powerful GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - M6, HR, 453rwhp SAE
Most Powerful GM LT1 Headed - Turbo 355 - 1012rwhp SAE
Most Powerful NA GM LT1 Headed- NA 383 A4 - 552rwhp SAE
Last edited by tireburnin; 09-29-2008 at 08:38 PM.
09-29-2008, 08:23 PM
#24
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i have never found any proof that LE is any better or any worse than AI...some people seem to think that if you buy the more expensive version of something that its gotta be better. Usually these threads turn into wars because everone thinks that one is better than the other but they both build compareable heads...
09-29-2008, 08:31 PM
#25
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i have never found any proof that LE is any better or any worse than AI...some people seem to think that if you buy the more expensive version of something that its gotta be better. Usually these threads turn into wars because everone thinks that one is better than the other but they both build compareable heads...
Just FYI:
Fastest GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - 10.89 @ 127.9mph w/ 200cc Heads & 227deg HR
Fastest NA GM LT1 headed F-Body - 9.88 @ 138.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR on 93 octane
Fastest Power Adder GM LT1 headed F-body - 9.8 @ 156.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & 218deg HR
Fastest NA Impala SS @ 3880lb - 10.7's @ 126mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR
Fastest 4k+ lb GM Stock Shortblock B-Body - 11.9's @ 113mph
Most Powerful GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - M6, HR, 453rwhp SAE
Most Powerful GM LT1 Headed - Turbo 355 - 1012rwhp SAE
Most Powerful NA GM LT1 Headed- NA 383 A4 - 552rwhp SAE
Fastest GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - 10.89 @ 127.9mph w/ 200cc Heads & 227deg HR
Fastest NA GM LT1 headed F-Body - 9.88 @ 138.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR on 93 octane
Fastest Power Adder GM LT1 headed F-body - 9.8 @ 156.75mph w/ 200cc Heads & 218deg HR
Fastest NA Impala SS @ 3880lb - 10.7's @ 126mph w/ 200cc Heads & SR
Fastest 4k+ lb GM Stock Shortblock B-Body - 11.9's @ 113mph
Most Powerful GM Stock Shortblock LT1 - M6, HR, 453rwhp SAE
Most Powerful GM LT1 Headed - Turbo 355 - 1012rwhp SAE
Most Powerful NA GM LT1 Headed- NA 383 A4 - 552rwhp SAE
09-29-2008, 08:40 PM
#26
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no one has even asked what you want out of the car...i mean are you going for records or just some local bragging rights? if you just want bragging rights, i'd go LE just because it is cheaper. i guess that's what i'm doing. not going for records, not making a track car, just going LE1 so i can show off around town a little bit and not totally kill my wallet. someone did say once on this topic that AI gets consistent ports with the CNC, but lloyd can take into account differences in heads since he does them by hand
09-29-2008, 08:43 PM
#27
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I edited my post because it appeared people weren't going to click on the link you posted.
Seems like the numbers speak for themselves. The terms "fastest" and "most powerful" aren't often associated with "budget" or "cheapest." It is a lesson that most people learn in time.
Copying people with fast cars is often the easiest way to go fast. I don't think the same applies for copying the most budget mindind or average cars?
Seems like the numbers speak for themselves. The terms "fastest" and "most powerful" aren't often associated with "budget" or "cheapest." It is a lesson that most people learn in time.
Copying people with fast cars is often the easiest way to go fast. I don't think the same applies for copying the most budget mindind or average cars?
09-29-2008, 10:56 PM
#28
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no one has even asked what you want out of the car...i mean are you going for records or just some local bragging rights? if you just want bragging rights, i'd go LE just because it is cheaper. i guess that's what i'm doing. not going for records, not making a track car, just going LE1 so i can show off around town a little bit and not totally kill my wallet. someone did say once on this topic that AI gets consistent ports with the CNC, but lloyd can take into account differences in heads since he does them by hand
09-29-2008, 11:24 PM
#29
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I stay so swamped in the shop that I really have very little time for adding stuff to my web site. I just have the basics on my site and really prefer the customer to contact me with there set ups so we can do what ever is gonna be best for them and get a price for things done the way that fits there set up best.
Each and every customers set up is different so you really can't put the same parts and same portwork for every set up. I guess I'll use this thread to go over my TFS pricing.
If a customer buys assembled Trick Flow heads and is using a mild HR cam (CC 503, etc) that will work with the Trick Flow dbl springs, I can fully port the heads, clean and assmeble the heads reusing these parts and the TFS valve job, milling, etc, for $550.
If a customer buys bare TFS heads (or gets bare TFS heads thru me), we can install better parts like the Ferrea 6000 series 2.02, 2.05, 2.08/1.60valves and some Patriot Gold Extreme springs. I can do the portwork, valve job, milling, cleaning and assembly for $1300 if the customer supplies the heads or $2220 if I supply the heads.
We could end up with anywhere from a 208 cc intake port to a 220 cc intake port depending on what valve size we use, cubic inch, RPM, intake, etc, etc, the customers set up is. We can end up with chambers anywhere from 57 cc to 62 cc depending on what we are needing. Same price regardless of chamber size.
Valve size can dictate how much can be milled from the heads, how much piston to valve clearance we have, etc so the bigger valve is not always the best choice for everyone. Figuring in L/D ratio and how much time the valve will spend at certain lifts will also effect what valve size is best. A .680 lift solid roller will definitely want the 2.08/1.60 valves but not everyone is running a cam like this. A small cam will like the 2.02 valve and less cylinder wall shrouding. Lots more to it than this but this atleast touches on the fact that the biggest valve is not always the best choice.
Some customers prefer the PAC 1218 or 1220 bee hive springs and I can use these springs instead for the same price. The patriots cost me more $$$ but I prefer using these better parts to make a more reliable set up.
Same price regardless of a 2.02, 2.05, 2.08 valve and if we use the Patriot Gold Extreme, PAC 1218 or PAC 1220 spring set ups. A solid roller set up would be more $$$ obviously.
Lloyd
Each and every customers set up is different so you really can't put the same parts and same portwork for every set up. I guess I'll use this thread to go over my TFS pricing.
If a customer buys assembled Trick Flow heads and is using a mild HR cam (CC 503, etc) that will work with the Trick Flow dbl springs, I can fully port the heads, clean and assmeble the heads reusing these parts and the TFS valve job, milling, etc, for $550.
If a customer buys bare TFS heads (or gets bare TFS heads thru me), we can install better parts like the Ferrea 6000 series 2.02, 2.05, 2.08/1.60valves and some Patriot Gold Extreme springs. I can do the portwork, valve job, milling, cleaning and assembly for $1300 if the customer supplies the heads or $2220 if I supply the heads.
We could end up with anywhere from a 208 cc intake port to a 220 cc intake port depending on what valve size we use, cubic inch, RPM, intake, etc, etc, the customers set up is. We can end up with chambers anywhere from 57 cc to 62 cc depending on what we are needing. Same price regardless of chamber size.
Valve size can dictate how much can be milled from the heads, how much piston to valve clearance we have, etc so the bigger valve is not always the best choice for everyone. Figuring in L/D ratio and how much time the valve will spend at certain lifts will also effect what valve size is best. A .680 lift solid roller will definitely want the 2.08/1.60 valves but not everyone is running a cam like this. A small cam will like the 2.02 valve and less cylinder wall shrouding. Lots more to it than this but this atleast touches on the fact that the biggest valve is not always the best choice.
Some customers prefer the PAC 1218 or 1220 bee hive springs and I can use these springs instead for the same price. The patriots cost me more $$$ but I prefer using these better parts to make a more reliable set up.
Same price regardless of a 2.02, 2.05, 2.08 valve and if we use the Patriot Gold Extreme, PAC 1218 or PAC 1220 spring set ups. A solid roller set up would be more $$$ obviously.
Lloyd
09-30-2008, 06:42 AM
#30
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You people know there are other options than Lloyd Elliot and AI correct? I'm not knocking either of them however there are some talented cylinder head that exist outside of this board and many might be in your back yard.
Many times people get caught up in the "me too" syndrome and feel that if camaro x runs a certain product/service then "me too" needs to get that product/service and I will run as good or make as much power.
I surf this board about daily and I see many people wishing for that magical one piece thats going to make them run fast or make big power. its the sum of all the parts and the correct knowledge that makes the combo work and sometimes you have to look outside the box.
Many times people get caught up in the "me too" syndrome and feel that if camaro x runs a certain product/service then "me too" needs to get that product/service and I will run as good or make as much power.
I surf this board about daily and I see many people wishing for that magical one piece thats going to make them run fast or make big power. its the sum of all the parts and the correct knowledge that makes the combo work and sometimes you have to look outside the box.