Internal balance question
#1
Internal balance question
I am refreshing/rebuilding my 383.
I am going to change the pistons from dish .030 over to flat top .040
There is a difference in weight of 6 grams petween pistons. Will this difference offset my internal balance too much or is it tolerable?
Dish piston and wrist pin weight:
Flat top piston and wrist pin weight:
I am going to change the pistons from dish .030 over to flat top .040
There is a difference in weight of 6 grams petween pistons. Will this difference offset my internal balance too much or is it tolerable?
Dish piston and wrist pin weight:
Flat top piston and wrist pin weight:
#3
Re: Internal balance question
found this post by 97 6Speed Z in another thread:
Jlo, I know this will run counter to the info in the above posts, but keep in mind everything has a tolerence! If your new pistons and ring pack are within +/- 8 to 10 grams of your old piston and ring packs original weight ....... your machine shop is right, you will NOT have to re-balance this motor.
If your new pistons and ring pack are up to 10 grams lighter than the OEM setup, your motor will now be slightly "overbalanced", something many NASCAR and performance engine builders do anyway. If your new piston/ring setup weighs no more than 8 to 10 additional grams per rod/cylinder you will still pretty much be within the OEM factory tolerance for GM line built engines.
Finally, from my personal experience, about two(2) years ago we re-built my cousin's '94 Z28 LT1 Camaro engine with stock rods and crank but "upgraded" to forged pistons so he could more safely run a small (50-75 hp) nitrous shot, and, even though the forged pistons and ring pack he used were about 10 grams heavier than stock ........ that motor runs "smooth as silk" right up to 6,500 RPM day in and day out.
Hope this info helps.
If your new pistons and ring pack are up to 10 grams lighter than the OEM setup, your motor will now be slightly "overbalanced", something many NASCAR and performance engine builders do anyway. If your new piston/ring setup weighs no more than 8 to 10 additional grams per rod/cylinder you will still pretty much be within the OEM factory tolerance for GM line built engines.
Finally, from my personal experience, about two(2) years ago we re-built my cousin's '94 Z28 LT1 Camaro engine with stock rods and crank but "upgraded" to forged pistons so he could more safely run a small (50-75 hp) nitrous shot, and, even though the forged pistons and ring pack he used were about 10 grams heavier than stock ........ that motor runs "smooth as silk" right up to 6,500 RPM day in and day out.
Hope this info helps.
#4
Re: Internal balance question
I was also considering the possibility of removing some material of the pistons to make them lighter. I might be able to remove some 3 grams of each piston without weakening them. Is this something worth doing?
#6
Re: Internal balance question
There is no shop capable of doing an internal balance of a rotating assembly here so I have to deal with this in the best way I can.
I did some searching and found a few older posts containnig some good advise:
This one from RSKRAUSE in advanced tech:
I did some searching and found a few older posts containnig some good advise:
This one from RSKRAUSE in advanced tech:
I learned a lot more than I knew about balancing recently. Basically, the convention of balancing the whole piston/rings/pin weight and 50% the rod weight is somewhat arbitrary. Different shops have slightly different ways of balancing. If you don't specify exactly what you want, many will deliberately "overbalance" by 1-2%. Overbalance means there is more counterweight than the traditional rod+50%. Some engine builders are convinced that overbalancing makes for smoother running at high rpm with a neglible increase in low rpm vibration.
I had a situation when assembling my race motor this year where this came up. After the shortblock was already assembled, I found a piston to valve clearance issue that necessitated new pistons. The new pistons were 36g lighter than the old ones. My machinist, engine building mentor, and JE all said "no problem, it might even be better". In spite of hearing this from three reliable sources I was skeptical but went ahead as the time and cost for rebalancing was prohibitive. And what do you know, it runs smooth as silk to 7,500rpm. Noticibly smoother above 5,000 than with a 50% balance and it is now ~3% overbalanced! I am going to take a look at a main bearing this weekend and will report any probems. But from the way it runs, I doubt there will be any.
Rich
__________________
I had a situation when assembling my race motor this year where this came up. After the shortblock was already assembled, I found a piston to valve clearance issue that necessitated new pistons. The new pistons were 36g lighter than the old ones. My machinist, engine building mentor, and JE all said "no problem, it might even be better". In spite of hearing this from three reliable sources I was skeptical but went ahead as the time and cost for rebalancing was prohibitive. And what do you know, it runs smooth as silk to 7,500rpm. Noticibly smoother above 5,000 than with a 50% balance and it is now ~3% overbalanced! I am going to take a look at a main bearing this weekend and will report any probems. But from the way it runs, I doubt there will be any.
Rich
__________________
Last edited by Ricardo; 02-18-2011 at 11:42 PM.
#7
Re: Internal balance question
Nothing has changed in my thinking from that old post of mine you quoted. If I read that scale correctly you are only looking at a 6.52 gram difference in piston and pin weights. Again, assuming your motor was correctly balanced with your old rotating assembly "set up", adding that 6.52 grams in piston weight will NOT require a re-balance. But ....... if you really want to sleep better at night, try finding either lighter "thin wall thickness" and/or "tool steel" piston PINS through Summit or Jegs, rather than removing ANY material from your new pistons!
Last edited by 97 6SPEED Z; 02-20-2011 at 03:41 PM.
#8
Re: Internal balance question
Call the shop that did your previous balance work and find out what the final numbers were(how much overbalance on front/rear) - this will tell you if by running the heavier pistons without a re-balance if you will fall into an under-balance situation which is not good at all. If the pistons had been 6g lighter I would have said run it without worry....
Where are you located that there's no shops that can balance an SBC??
Where are you located that there's no shops that can balance an SBC??
#9
Re: Internal balance question
Thanks for your replies.
I was able to get this close to the desired piston/pin weight combination by switching to a lighter piston pin. I switched from 130gr to 115gr pins and this left me wit only a 6 gram difference.
I already milled the pistons a bit and removed about 5 grams of each according to the " Chamfer pin boss " style shown in the SRP standard custom piston features description.
This procediure got me 1 gr from my ideal weight. I think I am good to go:
The shortblock was built by SDPC about ten years ago. It was the "race prepped" LT1 383 stroker offered at that time. (NLA) I dont think they would keep a record of a short block that was built ten years ago. I am located in Central America and there is no shop offering Dynamic balancng service for rotating assemblies.
I was able to get this close to the desired piston/pin weight combination by switching to a lighter piston pin. I switched from 130gr to 115gr pins and this left me wit only a 6 gram difference.
I already milled the pistons a bit and removed about 5 grams of each according to the " Chamfer pin boss " style shown in the SRP standard custom piston features description.
This procediure got me 1 gr from my ideal weight. I think I am good to go:
The shortblock was built by SDPC about ten years ago. It was the "race prepped" LT1 383 stroker offered at that time. (NLA) I dont think they would keep a record of a short block that was built ten years ago. I am located in Central America and there is no shop offering Dynamic balancng service for rotating assemblies.
Last edited by Ricardo; 02-21-2011 at 10:07 PM.
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