Last straw with this cranking but no starting
12-27-2005, 08:42 PM
#1
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Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Okay folks, hang on cause this is a sad tale that I'm hoping some of you guys can relate to and give me some feedback. I've done my searching on this site and I've found some useful info, but my problem still remains. At the end of August '05 I became tired of my hesitation past 5K rpm on my 143K mile 6-speed '97 Z28 so I decided that maybe a new coil would fix it, so I bought a cheapo aftermarket Duralast piece from Autozone to hold me over until I could afford a Delteq. Directly after the install my car ran well and the hesitation seemed to have gone away. Next morning I go to drop my daughter off to school and my car starts but seems to want to stall, so I keep the revs up and drive off. On the way there I stop at a toll booth and the car stalls and so begins this journey.
Car was towed home, bought an Actron scan tool, pulled out the Helm factory shop manual and went to work. Scanned the car, no codes. Tested the fuel pressure and it was good; also verified later by the dealer. Tested the I.C.M. connector per the shop manual, as well as Shoebox's site (terminals A & D), and found that one of my terminals was below spec, terminal D (<10V). I replaced that wire, looked for opens or grounds, checked all my fuses, and still no start and the terminal is still below spec. I guess I really didn't look as well as I should have thru the wiring since it's a friggin' jungle under the hood. I also checked terminal B and it was within spec during cranking. Anyways, I went ahead and bought a Wells ignition module, still no start. I finally broke down and had the local Chevy dealer look her over and they claimed it was the Opti and they wanted to charge me $1700.00 to fix it, including my sparkplug wires, which were actually pretty new. Plus another $300.00 for the waterpump since it was old and had to come off anyways, though it was not yet leaking.
Needless to say I had the car towed back home. I figured for that price I could do AND did the following: my Opti, a complete tune-up with new plugs (NGK TR55's) and Bosch O2 sensors (just the fronts because I had Madz28 delete the rears), convert my waterpump to electric with a Meziere unit, repair my leaking intake manifold gaskets, replace my serpentine belt, and finally do my Stainlessworks offroad y-pipe....so I let the car sit while I waited for all my parts to arrive. Mods on my car prior to this event were basic: MadZ28 tune, Moroso CAI, descreened MAF, blocked off air silencer, TB bypass, manual fan switch from Speed Specialties, DMH E-cutout on Flowtech Warlock muffler on otherwise stock exhaust.
So whenever I had a chance I would do one part of the motor on the weekends, working my way from top to bottom. I made sure everything bolted on in the same place I took them off. Marked all my wiring before I disconnected them. Made sure the camshaft pin aligned with the proper hole in the Opti. Even bought a new Opti harness from Casper Electronics. I was pretty **** about taking my time and following the manual. I even bought a new battery. Meanwhile, I thank my parents for loaning me their '85 Z28 while my '97 has sat on jackstands for the past few months. So this past weekend I finally got everything bolted back together and still no start! Boy was I pissed. Then I tried the original GM coil and the car actually ran for about 5 minutes, though it was rough, then she stalled and has never started since. I went to the Chevy dealer and bought a new GM coil and module at a good deal because they had a bulk supply for some reason; installed them and still no start. I rechecked my fuses and found the underhood 10A ignition fuse had popped, which also happened to be where I hooked up the positive for my Meziere. I took the Meziere wire off it and attached it to the 20A engine sensor fuse since the 20A matches the inline fuse that came with the Meziere wiring; replaced the busted 10A ignition fuse and still no start. Then I heard a pop somewhere under the dash or near the firewall as I turned the key to crank the car and all the power went out in the car...no lights, radio, etc., like a car with a dead battery. SO NOW WHAT? I was fuming. Took a break and came back to see that the power had returned, but the car still would only crank but won't start. Then the whole power outtage thing would happen again, I'd wait, then the power would return. This has happened 3 times so far since Sunday. I scanned the car again, no codes. WTF?! So it now seems my electrical problems have multiplied.
Now this no cranking problem is similar to my VATS problem I had before I bypassed it with some resistors a while back, but this time there is no Security light when the car refuses to crank since all the electricity is out. But like my VATS problem, after a while the car eventually does crank when the power returns. So what do you guys think? Wiring harness? Security system? Fusible link somewhere? PCM? This journey has been 4 long months now. This '85 5.0 Z28 I'm driving now, though she runs great, guzzles gas and is slower than molassass on a cold day and I just wanna get back behind the wheel of my '97...HELP ME PLEASE...somebody point me in the right direction because right now I'm thinking of heading back to the dealer.
Thanks for any info.
Car was towed home, bought an Actron scan tool, pulled out the Helm factory shop manual and went to work. Scanned the car, no codes. Tested the fuel pressure and it was good; also verified later by the dealer. Tested the I.C.M. connector per the shop manual, as well as Shoebox's site (terminals A & D), and found that one of my terminals was below spec, terminal D (<10V). I replaced that wire, looked for opens or grounds, checked all my fuses, and still no start and the terminal is still below spec. I guess I really didn't look as well as I should have thru the wiring since it's a friggin' jungle under the hood. I also checked terminal B and it was within spec during cranking. Anyways, I went ahead and bought a Wells ignition module, still no start. I finally broke down and had the local Chevy dealer look her over and they claimed it was the Opti and they wanted to charge me $1700.00 to fix it, including my sparkplug wires, which were actually pretty new. Plus another $300.00 for the waterpump since it was old and had to come off anyways, though it was not yet leaking.
Needless to say I had the car towed back home. I figured for that price I could do AND did the following: my Opti, a complete tune-up with new plugs (NGK TR55's) and Bosch O2 sensors (just the fronts because I had Madz28 delete the rears), convert my waterpump to electric with a Meziere unit, repair my leaking intake manifold gaskets, replace my serpentine belt, and finally do my Stainlessworks offroad y-pipe....so I let the car sit while I waited for all my parts to arrive. Mods on my car prior to this event were basic: MadZ28 tune, Moroso CAI, descreened MAF, blocked off air silencer, TB bypass, manual fan switch from Speed Specialties, DMH E-cutout on Flowtech Warlock muffler on otherwise stock exhaust.
So whenever I had a chance I would do one part of the motor on the weekends, working my way from top to bottom. I made sure everything bolted on in the same place I took them off. Marked all my wiring before I disconnected them. Made sure the camshaft pin aligned with the proper hole in the Opti. Even bought a new Opti harness from Casper Electronics. I was pretty **** about taking my time and following the manual. I even bought a new battery. Meanwhile, I thank my parents for loaning me their '85 Z28 while my '97 has sat on jackstands for the past few months. So this past weekend I finally got everything bolted back together and still no start! Boy was I pissed. Then I tried the original GM coil and the car actually ran for about 5 minutes, though it was rough, then she stalled and has never started since. I went to the Chevy dealer and bought a new GM coil and module at a good deal because they had a bulk supply for some reason; installed them and still no start. I rechecked my fuses and found the underhood 10A ignition fuse had popped, which also happened to be where I hooked up the positive for my Meziere. I took the Meziere wire off it and attached it to the 20A engine sensor fuse since the 20A matches the inline fuse that came with the Meziere wiring; replaced the busted 10A ignition fuse and still no start. Then I heard a pop somewhere under the dash or near the firewall as I turned the key to crank the car and all the power went out in the car...no lights, radio, etc., like a car with a dead battery. SO NOW WHAT? I was fuming. Took a break and came back to see that the power had returned, but the car still would only crank but won't start. Then the whole power outtage thing would happen again, I'd wait, then the power would return. This has happened 3 times so far since Sunday. I scanned the car again, no codes. WTF?! So it now seems my electrical problems have multiplied.
Now this no cranking problem is similar to my VATS problem I had before I bypassed it with some resistors a while back, but this time there is no Security light when the car refuses to crank since all the electricity is out. But like my VATS problem, after a while the car eventually does crank when the power returns. So what do you guys think? Wiring harness? Security system? Fusible link somewhere? PCM? This journey has been 4 long months now. This '85 5.0 Z28 I'm driving now, though she runs great, guzzles gas and is slower than molassass on a cold day and I just wanna get back behind the wheel of my '97...HELP ME PLEASE...somebody point me in the right direction because right now I'm thinking of heading back to the dealer.
Thanks for any info.
Last edited by ponchoV8; 12-31-2005 at 12:59 PM.
12-27-2005, 09:06 PM
#2
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Stanwood, WA
Posts: 57
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Check to see if your PCM is getting power, I worked on a Chevy pick-up recently that had similar symtoms and the problem ended up being the ignition switch. The leg that was supposed to be sending power to the PCM was bad, you might have a bad leg or 2 in the switch.
12-27-2005, 09:21 PM
#3
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Summerfield, NC USA
Posts: 719
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
I would point towards the ignition switch or harness that sits on top of the steering column, seen them go bad as well. Have you checked for power @ the icm / coil? and I wouldn't run the meziere off a fuse under the hood, since it already has an inline fuse run it off the battery terminal so it can get the current it needs and not stress out the factory wiring harness.
I had the problem w/ mine not running, etc etc, turned out to be 6 of my 8 injectors were clogged to the hilt w/ crap, but I had completely different circumstances. One way to check to see if your injectors are all firing, install the fuel pressure tester, prime the system, then pull the relay so the fuel pump won't run, fire the engine over and see if you can watch the needle flinch or go to 0 pretty quickly, that'll give you a piece of mind that you're getting fuel. my needle would twitch all the way down to 0 since only 2 injectors could somewhat get fuel out.
I had the problem w/ mine not running, etc etc, turned out to be 6 of my 8 injectors were clogged to the hilt w/ crap, but I had completely different circumstances. One way to check to see if your injectors are all firing, install the fuel pressure tester, prime the system, then pull the relay so the fuel pump won't run, fire the engine over and see if you can watch the needle flinch or go to 0 pretty quickly, that'll give you a piece of mind that you're getting fuel. my needle would twitch all the way down to 0 since only 2 injectors could somewhat get fuel out.
12-27-2005, 09:32 PM
#4
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 198
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
On 3 occasions I had a cranking car that didn't fire. Mine is a '97 as well.
#1 was a broken Opti rotor
#2 was my MAF wiring harness connection was loose
#3 was my air silencer Pert Cap had cracked and fallen off
I'd also take a look at that electric ater pump. It looks like it's causing some added problems due to the way it's wired. I suggest running a dedicated power wire from the battery (I have a "Hot" connection point on my right front fender well..you might too) to a relay controlled by the engine temp sensor wire so the pump will come on when the engine temp gets up. Run a dedicated ground to the chassis or even back to the battery.
#1 was a broken Opti rotor
#2 was my MAF wiring harness connection was loose
#3 was my air silencer Pert Cap had cracked and fallen off
I'd also take a look at that electric ater pump. It looks like it's causing some added problems due to the way it's wired. I suggest running a dedicated power wire from the battery (I have a "Hot" connection point on my right front fender well..you might too) to a relay controlled by the engine temp sensor wire so the pump will come on when the engine temp gets up. Run a dedicated ground to the chassis or even back to the battery.
12-28-2005, 02:48 PM
#5
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Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
[QUOTE=Randy L]On 3 occasions I had a cranking car that didn't fire. Mine is a '97 as well.
#1 was a broken Opti rotor
#2 was my MAF wiring harness connection was loose
#3 was my air silencer Pert Cap had cracked and fallen off
QUOTE]
#1 When I took off the old Opti something was rattling inside, but I couldn't get into the damn thing because of those weird reverse-Torx screws that holds it together.
#2 According to the shop manual the car will still crank and run with a damaged or disconnected MAF, but it will run in Speed density mode to do so. I even unplugged my MAF to see if the car would start, which if it did would indicate a bad MAF, but it still didn't run.
#3 I will have to go and check my silencer plug...hmm.
As for my Meziere, like you guys suggest, my old man whose more an old-school mechanic himself...ie. pre-computer, told me to run a dedicated wiring set-up for it as well, so that's my plan. I'll utilize a switch as well so I can run it while the car is off so it can help circulate the coolant while it sits in the staging lanes.
Another weird thing it didn't do before I did all this work is that my Actron scanner has realtime data capability, and now when I go to start the car, the scanner shuts off as I crank and returns to the start-up screen when I quit cranking, whereas before it didn't shut off & switch screens so that I could see that it was registering RPM on the "view data" screen. I replaced the battery in the scanner and still no realtime data. According to the manual, no RPM data on the scanner as I crank is a sign of a PCM problem, but my scanner just shuts off and switches to the main menu screen as I crank.
I'm gonna go thru the whole wiring this weekend. I've been studying up on all the details and diagrams in the shop manual. But if I can't get it to fire up, I'm gonna first get a membership to AAA for some cheaper towing, and then I'm off to find a mom & pop shop that specializes in electrical problems because I can't afford those ridiculous dealer prices. Thanx for the advice, keep'em coming.
#1 was a broken Opti rotor
#2 was my MAF wiring harness connection was loose
#3 was my air silencer Pert Cap had cracked and fallen off
QUOTE]
#1 When I took off the old Opti something was rattling inside, but I couldn't get into the damn thing because of those weird reverse-Torx screws that holds it together.
#2 According to the shop manual the car will still crank and run with a damaged or disconnected MAF, but it will run in Speed density mode to do so. I even unplugged my MAF to see if the car would start, which if it did would indicate a bad MAF, but it still didn't run.
#3 I will have to go and check my silencer plug...hmm.
As for my Meziere, like you guys suggest, my old man whose more an old-school mechanic himself...ie. pre-computer, told me to run a dedicated wiring set-up for it as well, so that's my plan. I'll utilize a switch as well so I can run it while the car is off so it can help circulate the coolant while it sits in the staging lanes.
Another weird thing it didn't do before I did all this work is that my Actron scanner has realtime data capability, and now when I go to start the car, the scanner shuts off as I crank and returns to the start-up screen when I quit cranking, whereas before it didn't shut off & switch screens so that I could see that it was registering RPM on the "view data" screen. I replaced the battery in the scanner and still no realtime data. According to the manual, no RPM data on the scanner as I crank is a sign of a PCM problem, but my scanner just shuts off and switches to the main menu screen as I crank.
I'm gonna go thru the whole wiring this weekend. I've been studying up on all the details and diagrams in the shop manual. But if I can't get it to fire up, I'm gonna first get a membership to AAA for some cheaper towing, and then I'm off to find a mom & pop shop that specializes in electrical problems because I can't afford those ridiculous dealer prices. Thanx for the advice, keep'em coming.
12-28-2005, 03:52 PM
#7
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Summerfield, NC USA
Posts: 719
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
do you have a voltmeter? If so, place it on the ecm fuse and watch the voltage as you crank to see if you are possibly experiencing low voltage due to the ignition switch going bad. The actron probably gets power for the serial interface through the aldl. the power pin on the aldl is the bottom right hand corner, should have +12v there constant no matter what.
Check shoebox's website for the wiring diagram for the ecm, check to make sure you're getting power to all the power pins, power to the pink wires on the injectors, etc.
If you figure out it is the ecm, I have an obd2 ecm for sale, sorry for whoring, but just letting you know.
Check shoebox's website for the wiring diagram for the ecm, check to make sure you're getting power to all the power pins, power to the pink wires on the injectors, etc.
If you figure out it is the ecm, I have an obd2 ecm for sale, sorry for whoring, but just letting you know.
12-28-2005, 05:10 PM
#8
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Posts: 198
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Concerning the $1700 dealer quote, it's pretty easy to change the Opti yourself. Just take your time and look closely at how everything fits together and get thoroughly familiar with the way it all looks BEFORE you start tearing stuff out. I changed my Opti in about 2 hours, taking my time, including having to remove the water pump, AIR system, coil, harmonic balancer, and serpentine belt.
12-28-2005, 09:41 PM
#9
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Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Originally Posted by Randy L
Concerning the $1700 dealer quote, it's pretty easy to change the Opti yourself. Just take your time and look closely at how everything fits together and get thoroughly familiar with the way it all looks BEFORE you start tearing stuff out. I changed my Opti in about 2 hours, taking my time, including having to remove the water pump, AIR system, coil, harmonic balancer, and serpentine belt.
Hotwire, how much you asking for the ECM? Will it work on a '97 LT1/6M? I got my current ECM reprogrammed by MadZ28 and had the rear O2's deleted. My new Y-pipe I just installed along eliminated the rear O2's themselves, will this ECM you're selling set off an SES light because the rear O2's are gone? Lemme know, I'll take it if the price is right. PM me if you want.
'97WS6, yeah I forgot about that. I know of at least one of my larger gauge wires on that positive junction on the wheelwell by the battery has the insulation pulled back and the bare wires are exposed. I will also go ahead and clean the connections and put some dielectric grease on them.
Last edited by ponchoV8; 12-28-2005 at 09:45 PM.
12-29-2005, 10:50 AM
#10
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ocala FL
Posts: 268
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Just a guess: Is the A/C - heater blower working fine on high speed?
Reason I asked is because the same fusible link feeds that high speed blower relay circuit feeds the PCM / Battery fuse #3 in the fuse box on the side of the instrument panel as seen here
I'm going to guess your problem is on the ground side of a circuit but it would be a good idea to disassemble and clean those positive terminals on the junction block beside the battery, as has already been suggested, since that tends to be a problem spot often from what I've seen/ heard/ read.
If you don't solve the problem another way, and you want to check for a bad ground, I posted the text descriction of ground locations a while back in this thread on ws6zxr.com. There are a bunch that would not cause a problem like yours, but you can tell by the description which would affect PCM, ignition, fuel ect. like G109, G110, G111, and possibly G305.
I also agree with 97WS6SCharged about checking the battery cables, for continuity as well as connections..
Hope this helps. Good luck
Reason I asked is because the same fusible link feeds that high speed blower relay circuit feeds the PCM / Battery fuse #3 in the fuse box on the side of the instrument panel as seen here
I'm going to guess your problem is on the ground side of a circuit but it would be a good idea to disassemble and clean those positive terminals on the junction block beside the battery, as has already been suggested, since that tends to be a problem spot often from what I've seen/ heard/ read.
If you don't solve the problem another way, and you want to check for a bad ground, I posted the text descriction of ground locations a while back in this thread on ws6zxr.com. There are a bunch that would not cause a problem like yours, but you can tell by the description which would affect PCM, ignition, fuel ect. like G109, G110, G111, and possibly G305.
I also agree with 97WS6SCharged about checking the battery cables, for continuity as well as connections..
Hope this helps. Good luck
12-29-2005, 01:12 PM
#11
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Houston,Tx
Posts: 696
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Check your ICM again. My car did the same thing a couple of weeks ago. I took out my blaster coil and replaced it with my stock coil. The stock coil ended up making my ICM go out.
12-29-2005, 01:35 PM
#12
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Location: Boulder, CO -
Posts: 1,428
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
ive been having the exact same problem for last 3 months. did new cam and valvetrain, she ran perfect then had trouble idling.... had to keep reving it to keep it going then stalled and she wouldnt fire since...
went through everything like you did... no codes... fuel pressure perfect.. pulled injectors they were good... new battery .. new alternator... new computer... replaced 2 optis...new coils... checked all fuses... no codes thrown... no emissions to go bad... re-adjusted all valvetrain. and still she wouldnt fire.
finally bit the bullet 2 weeks ago and brought it to a shop who specializes in our engines. First thing they wanted me to do was order a brand new GM opti again just in case.... so they tore her back down to the block... from what they could tell she was put together right. timing chain was still alligned...
so far theyve replaced opti - found waterpump was bad so now i had them put an electric on .. .and they just put the engine all back together and replaced the ICM while they were at it...
unfortunately they are closed untill jan 3 so ill have to wait till then to find out if the problem is finally fixed.....
they have been stumped.... and ive invested over 2k trouble shooting it... for that money i could have pulled the whole engine and started from scratch
keep us updated
went through everything like you did... no codes... fuel pressure perfect.. pulled injectors they were good... new battery .. new alternator... new computer... replaced 2 optis...new coils... checked all fuses... no codes thrown... no emissions to go bad... re-adjusted all valvetrain. and still she wouldnt fire.
finally bit the bullet 2 weeks ago and brought it to a shop who specializes in our engines. First thing they wanted me to do was order a brand new GM opti again just in case.... so they tore her back down to the block... from what they could tell she was put together right. timing chain was still alligned...
so far theyve replaced opti - found waterpump was bad so now i had them put an electric on .. .and they just put the engine all back together and replaced the ICM while they were at it...
unfortunately they are closed untill jan 3 so ill have to wait till then to find out if the problem is finally fixed.....
they have been stumped.... and ive invested over 2k trouble shooting it... for that money i could have pulled the whole engine and started from scratch
keep us updated
12-30-2005, 06:32 PM
#13
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: A pineapple under the sea.
Posts: 148
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
Originally Posted by kingman109
ive been having the exact same problem for last 3 months. did new cam and valvetrain, she ran perfect then had trouble idling.... had to keep reving it to keep it going then stalled and she wouldnt fire since...
went through everything like you did... no codes... fuel pressure perfect.. pulled injectors they were good... new battery .. new alternator... new computer... replaced 2 optis...new coils... checked all fuses... no codes thrown... no emissions to go bad... re-adjusted all valvetrain. and still she wouldnt fire.
finally bit the bullet 2 weeks ago and brought it to a shop who specializes in our engines. First thing they wanted me to do was order a brand new GM opti again just in case.... so they tore her back down to the block... from what they could tell she was put together right. timing chain was still alligned...
so far theyve replaced opti - found waterpump was bad so now i had them put an electric on .. .and they just put the engine all back together and replaced the ICM while they were at it...
unfortunately they are closed untill jan 3 so ill have to wait till then to find out if the problem is finally fixed.....
they have been stumped.... and ive invested over 2k trouble shooting it... for that money i could have pulled the whole engine and started from scratch
keep us updated
went through everything like you did... no codes... fuel pressure perfect.. pulled injectors they were good... new battery .. new alternator... new computer... replaced 2 optis...new coils... checked all fuses... no codes thrown... no emissions to go bad... re-adjusted all valvetrain. and still she wouldnt fire.
finally bit the bullet 2 weeks ago and brought it to a shop who specializes in our engines. First thing they wanted me to do was order a brand new GM opti again just in case.... so they tore her back down to the block... from what they could tell she was put together right. timing chain was still alligned...
so far theyve replaced opti - found waterpump was bad so now i had them put an electric on .. .and they just put the engine all back together and replaced the ICM while they were at it...
unfortunately they are closed untill jan 3 so ill have to wait till then to find out if the problem is finally fixed.....
they have been stumped.... and ive invested over 2k trouble shooting it... for that money i could have pulled the whole engine and started from scratch
keep us updated
I swear I'm about to give up on defending GM when my coworkers say they've never had any serious problems with their Hondas and Toyotas.I found a local shop that advertises in the yellow pages that they specialize in electrical related problems. I'm headed there if can't figure this stuff out using several of the suggestions here. But before I head to that shop I'm gonna invest in a AAA membership because I already know firsthand the gas prices have the tow truck companies claiming they have to charge more unless you have AAA.
12-31-2005, 01:30 AM
#14
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Location: Boulder, CO -
Posts: 1,428
Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
ha gotta love AAA - gotten my moneys worth out of them..
anyway i should know by the 3rd..... couple thousand later considering everything but i should know... i personally have a feeling its the ICM...but ill let u know
anyway i should know by the 3rd..... couple thousand later considering everything but i should know... i personally have a feeling its the ICM...but ill let u know
12-31-2005, 12:44 PM
#15
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Re: Last straw with this cranking but no starting
When you have the problem again (apparent loss of power) leave the key in the RUN position and check the injector fuse #9 in the underhood fuse panel for power. If the starter motor still does not engage try:
Bypassing the theft deterrent relay by jumping the yellow to the purple wire at the relay socket. (common to NO). NOTE that it will crank in gear when you have this jumper in place so be careful.
Once you have it cranking, if it does not start, check the coil for spark with a plug and lead from another cylinder. If you see spark, try squirting fuel in the intake while someone cranks it over.
Bypassing the theft deterrent relay by jumping the yellow to the purple wire at the relay socket. (common to NO). NOTE that it will crank in gear when you have this jumper in place so be careful.
Once you have it cranking, if it does not start, check the coil for spark with a plug and lead from another cylinder. If you see spark, try squirting fuel in the intake while someone cranks it over.