ponchoV8

I found this wandering the net last nite. It's more a step-by-step approach good for a novice like myself: Lt1 No Start Diagnostic http://www.mainstreamtopics.com/foru...p?showtopic=78

kingman109

so any progress? i finally got my car back from the shop and am kicking myself hard for not just waiting and doing the work myself in the spring... figure it might help you diagnose so heres a breakdown of how they troubleshot it and what they found... ha also enjoy the costs they made me bend over and pay.

*removed used distributor, disassembled customer supplied distributor and applied thread lock to internal hardware and reasembled. Removed timing cover and inspected timing chain alignment. Looked good. Reinstalled timing cover and distributor. Inspected water pump and found weep hole plugged with silicone. Advised customer and installed a new WP
labor = 7.5 x 70.00 = $525

*computer diagnostic service- no codes found
labor = 1 x 70 = $70

*gaskets, oil, coolant, starting fluid(all listed but this gives rough idea)
parts = $130

*removed spark plugs and compression test each cylinder. Replaced fouled plugs with new ones
labor = 3.5 x 70 = $245

*inspected rocker arm adjustments- found bent push rod on cylinder 5 exhuast valve
labor = 2 x 70 = $140

*adjsted rockers and engine did not run
labor = 3 x 70 = $210

*tested engine electrical sytem found voltage from unknown source
labor = .5 x 70 = $35

*pulled timing cover to reinspect timing components. Found ECT wired melted inside wiring loom. Changed mechanical timing 180 degrees- adjusted rocker arms acording to each cylinder position instead of camshaft and crankshaft position. Reassembled and engine started easily
labor = 9 x 70 = $630

*engine would not idle well.. inspected new plugs found them fouled replaced new plugs engine runs well
labor = 3 x 70 = $210

*wire replacement stuff
parts = $16

*waterpump [new]
parts = $ 109

so basically broken down labor = $2,065 and parts = $259 and tax = $200

basically reason it was so expensive is they re-assembled and had to go back into the timing cover... im not happy about that at all. and then they had to re-adjust the rockers 2x. right there is over a grand in labor.

well... its done and running great.. guess i learned my lesson and have the most expensive cam install -

kingman109

ya... im not happy at all about it... but its done with- i argued and got no where- they actually spent 7 days straight working on it but only charged me book hours.

im pissed they were into the timing cover to begin with and didnt catch this stuff...

mike 96 ws6

ECT? They found a bad wire for the engine coolant temp sensor?
I didn't know the opti would connect with the drive from the cam 180 degrees out of time. Other than that point, it doesn't matter if the cam is at 0 degrees or 180 degrees out {camshaft position vs crankshaft position}, as long as the cam is aligned correctly with the distributor.
The pistons are in the same position each turn of the crankshaft but the camshaft is only aligned in the same position every 2nd revolution of the crankshaft. The distibutor has to be in time with the camshaft, 'period'.
If they dissassembled the timing chain and re-assembled it 180 degrees opposite of where it was, it would not make a bit of difference at all with anything as long as the distributor was aligned properly with the cam.

I'm lost. Is there a way to connect the opti to the camshaft 180 degrees opposite of where it needs to be?

turbo_Z

Nah he got screwed on labor there too. The #1 and #6 pistons are at TDC at the same time so it doesnt matter which you set the TC up for because the opti still goes on indexed at the cam dowl pin.

PonchoV8... where are you located? Might be able to get a local LT1 guy to help you look stuff over.

Did you ever check for fuel or spark? And I mean by physically pulling off a spark plug to check for spark and sticking your nose in the intake smelling for raw fuel?

Its just I see you replacing all these parts but the check is just cranking your motor when all that tells you is maybe 3 things... no spark, no fuel, timing is off... nothing more and nothing less. You need to pull the plug wire from the coil to the opti and see if the coil is putting out spark... that will tell you all the ignition components are working properly EXCEPT for the opti. Then there is the remote chance the spark plugs are actually firing. Now if you can varify the motor is getting fuel then you have installed the opti wrong.

Something else WAY in the left field but not impossible is your timing chain broke... pull off the drivers side valvecover to see if the rockers move.

mike 96 ws6

Thanks. I didn't think that 180 degree thing sounded right.
Neither does "adjusted rocker arms acording to each cylinder position instead of camshaft and crankshaft position".
I guess the crankshaft throws may have slipped a bit making them out of alignment with the keyway broached into the solid metal crankshaft.

mike 96 ws6

Yes, likely. If the fault indicated by the code was severe enough to cause the problems described it would surely set a hard code therefore turning on the MIL {SES light}.

DTC P0117 ECT Sensor Circuit Low Voltage
DTC P0118 ECT Sensor Circuit High Voltage
DTC P0125 ECT Excessive Time to Closed Loop
DTC P1114 ECT Sensor CKT Intermittent Low Voltage
DTC P1115 ECT Sensor CKT Intermittent High Voltage
Also it would likely cause a problem in a circuit that would set a hard code not directly identified by one of the ECT codes listed. The PCM does not operate anywhere near efficiently when the actual coolant temp is xx degrees and it thinks it is yy degrees.

ponchoV8

I've kinda lost motivation right now, it's cold outside (for Florida), plus I've been battling some bad Taco Bell this past weekend...LOL.

I did all that checking before I started all the work I did. Fuel press. was good and was later verified good by the dealer. I could even smell the unburned gas from cranking it. No spark at the plugs AND coil.......leads me to believe it's the wiring or computer. No codes from scanning.

Even after I did all the work, still no spark. Whole stupid ignition is new GM parts. Either the wiring was faulty to begin with or I fried something when I wired my Meziere up because when I had finally bolted her all up, she ran about 5 min. and died....back to square one.

kingman, I've spent a little less in parts for what you paid that shop, but at least your car runs now.

mike 96 ws6

Where did you get the supply current for the electric pump, specifically, and where did you connect the ground for it?

mike 96 ws6

Never mind.
Sorry
It may be a good idea to draw supply voltage to the water pump from another source rather than the engine sensor circuit. That's a fairly picky circuit as far as supplying the correct voltage to certain sensors which may cause a problem, but that's just my opinion and would be a good idea although it likely has nothing to do with a condition of no-spark as you have

spcearle

ok i dont want to start any fights or probs here but i was one of the mechanics working on kingmans car and alot of the info told to us was not easy to come up with a fix for it straight out and early......as for him getting screwed on the bill.....he made out very good on it concidering i my self had alot of hours even more so then was paid for and charged into it......think about it guys...you bring a car into a shop thats custom its not a straight up diagnosis on repairs ........we did a very thuro and complete job on his car and we fixed mistakes that were made b4 he even brought the car to us.....we also had the basis that the car was running great with no probs prior and then stopped running all of the sudden.......like he said b4...1 bent pushrod and extremely mis adjusted rr and a couple rocker studs that werent even in right.....i just kinda feel insulted by people thinking me and my shop screwed him...i spent alot of my time on his car and even tried parts from my own camaro to figure out a fix for him....you call and shop thats even willing to work on our cars and you'll find we did him good on this.....hell opti and plugs are hard enough on these and i did them twice to make sure he left with a good running car and not a pos

kingman109

hey - i want to first start off by thanking you and the shop for your work. i guess i posted this and kinda let it run without checking it. When i was first told the bill it kinda floored me out of surprise... but after going down and talking with jason and looking at the bill... its apparent where the cost came from.

Also...after sitting on it a few days... think about it... i basically dropped a car off at their shop and told them i tore into engine...did a ton of stuff and it doesnt run... troubleshoot it please. That is an immense amount of work to drop on someone and there are so many different areas where their could be problems arising.

spcearle i also want to add... when i got car back she was still having some issues..real bad stuttering... some backfiring and really rough idle at times...but weather warmed up and i got the front end on her and drove her till i emptied the gas tank... filled her up with fresh gas and all the little problems vanished... so i think you were also dealing with gas that sat way too long in the tank.

as of right now the car is running better than it ever has. idles great and has minimal surging under 1600 rpms, which considernig the cam is amazing.

So thats my update to this thread - yes the bill was huge... but it was justified... they didnt charge me for the new pushrod...only charged 109$ for a brand new WP - and after talking to some people and jason charged me way less hours than they put in. Ive allready recommended them to a few friends for much simple'er problems ... and would go back to them in a heartbeat ha and prob would just have them do the work to start with... would have saved a lot that way...

i did not intend for this thread to insult you or your shop... i had just spent so much time on this board trouble shooting it i wanted to post what was done to get her finally running.

spcearle

i apreciate your reply and am also sorry if i was bein an *** about it all........i just need to defend my shop and its rep and especially my own.......i've spent alot of time learning and getting an understanding for these cars after working on my own and i know whats involved on these and i also know in comparison to the other shops in our area..they cant touch what we do and treat you as fairly.......i'm also glad to hear that all is goin well with the car and you are enjoying it.....i just dont want any bad feelings or anything over this and want everyone to be happy and satisfied

kingman109

no problem... what you posted was justified..

going back to this and the WNYF post i feel pretty guilty after driving my car the otherday. That was also the reason i went your shop... you guys were the best around and recomended to me by many people... You have a great rep on Rochester F-body... i wanted to go to someone that knew what they were doing... in talking with you guys i knew you did.

i just didnt realize the extent of the problems with the car... and now i do.

thanks again - and i purposely didnt post the name of the shop just because i didnt want to taint the name

MENEGRANDE

I have the very same issues. I'm to the point where I got tired of the car and just pushed it into the garage till summer. There are also almost no shops around here except for some mexican ones which I don't trust. There are plenty of import shops and a hot rod shop that I called and they told me that they do not waste time on f-bodies. How sad. I'm pretty much exhausted and just going to wait for good weather so that I can start all over again.