LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
05-17-2006, 10:11 AM
#136
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Location: Ocala, Florida
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Javier97Z28
eh, either he's just "ok" or pcmforless is just *that* dead on... I know Zman picked up a little bit in peak #'s and a tad across the board, nothing to write home about considering the cost.
I'm up to seeing what kinda results you get, looking forward to it b/c I'd love to see a dynotuner worth a damn in the area.
I'm up to seeing what kinda results you get, looking forward to it b/c I'd love to see a dynotuner worth a damn in the area.
and only richened up to around 13.4, so I know I should have some power left in it.
05-17-2006, 11:26 AM
#137
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Location: VA
Posts: 57
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
my concern would be variation in flow at x- lifts ( .200- .300 etc) between ports..... the CNC will be closer in that dept. considering the time it would take a hand porter to accomplish 3 to 5 cfm differences between ports throughout the entire lift range... but what do i know, I dont post in tech everyday...
Can it be done by hand, sure. Gotta few months???
CNC followed by additional hand porting/finishing is usually the choice of anyone seeking a competitive edge or more power than thy neighbor..
Can it be done by hand, sure. Gotta few months??? CNC followed by additional hand porting/finishing is usually the choice of anyone seeking a competitive edge or more power than thy neighbor..
05-17-2006, 11:48 AM
#138
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Posts: 6,518
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Joe, how many sets of hand ported heads do you check on a flow bench with a comment like that? Obviously not a lot since your day job gets in the way.
1st, Most times the heads will be within 1-2cfm, maybe 3-5 at the worst in the majority of heads I have ever flowed, but then again I don't play with junk. IF this was such a huge problem then a BBC head would never work.
2nd, have you ever flowed the heads with the intake on them? Even a well ported race manifold will cause variations in the flow from port to port, sometimes as much as 10cfm in a race single plane bettween outer and inner ports.
Bret
1st, Most times the heads will be within 1-2cfm, maybe 3-5 at the worst in the majority of heads I have ever flowed, but then again I don't play with junk. IF this was such a huge problem then a BBC head would never work.
2nd, have you ever flowed the heads with the intake on them? Even a well ported race manifold will cause variations in the flow from port to port, sometimes as much as 10cfm in a race single plane bettween outer and inner ports.
Bret
05-17-2006, 11:53 AM
#139
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
Threat BWHAHAHAHA not hardly, you still till this day have failed to have a car run equal to cars with 3 old cams I done years ago let alone make anymore power !!! you know whats funny those 4-5 guys that show up at the PRO races ,you are not one of them... Pony up ,is what I've done every year, why would things be any different
As for the cams, considering that I can make as much or more power with 10° less duration, make more midrange TQ to the tune of 30 ft lbs and make the STREET cars more driveable and enjoyable for the customer to drive them around, keep thinking that your still heads up on me, just gets you farther and farther behind.
FWIW How fast has one of your Cam only LS1's gone?
Bret
05-17-2006, 12:46 PM
#140
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Location: VA
Posts: 57
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
That's a little harder to pony up now as it was in the past isin't it? Maybe that's why your on here to drum up a little more $?
As for the cams, considering that I can make as much or more power with 10° less duration, make more midrange TQ to the tune of 30 ft lbs and make the STREET cars more driveable and enjoyable for the customer to drive them around, keep thinking that your still heads up on me, just gets you farther and farther behind.
FWIW How fast has one of your Cam only LS1's gone?
Bret
As for the cams, considering that I can make as much or more power with 10° less duration, make more midrange TQ to the tune of 30 ft lbs and make the STREET cars more driveable and enjoyable for the customer to drive them around, keep thinking that your still heads up on me, just gets you farther and farther behind.
FWIW How fast has one of your Cam only LS1's gone?
Bret
Bret maybe one day you'll be able to pony up more than DYNO numbers and idle B/S comparisons to 3 old cams I done..Do you honestly think for one minute thats the only three I've ever done..LOL... All thats coming from you is talk ABOUT HOW BIG YOU ARE... BUT what exactly have you done?? wheres the record breaking cars?? Cars thats paved the way for the rest of the lt1/ls1 world that you had not one hand in..Can you say you have??? Thing is I know alot more about topics concerning heads, cams, engine, chassis setup, tuning on these cars than you can imagine. Because I don't spout this and that or have input on every tech question .Guess that makes you so superior.. Thing is Bret I don't have to do that, YOU do...
Nice rebuttle on eluding that I'm soliciting on this site... However, we all know whos the one that scavages the board looking for somewhere to add .02 , don't we? cam only lt1 or ls1, cam head lt1/ls1 take your pick Bret. Your best efforts are falling short FACT!
Cam only ls1 time? do a search I'm sure you can find some times to shoot for...
Thing is I had a ls1 that I had a hand in and held a record already.. what about you grasshopper...??
Last edited by Joseph Overton; 05-17-2006 at 02:45 PM.
05-17-2006, 03:10 PM
#142
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by A/G
Understood and acknowledged with no dispute, hence the 'good' port 'bad' port BBC designation. That has been known for a few decades by those familiar with porting.
But either way, I have an arguement. If porter has the liberty to deviate port configurations due to core shift, without adverse port flow reaction where is the exact science? If it is important to have consistancy with precise stock removal (.010 here, .020 there) then allowing for core shift is self destructive. AFAIC, it can be some of both. Part of the skill in the trade is knowing where. I will state CNC consistancy should address the areas that require that extra .010 here and .020 there. Core shift should have no bearing on that amount, pinch wall notwithstanding. If the porter finds himself tweeking the CNC port that minute .010-.030 on a regular basis, tweeking the program itself may be an option.
Believe it or not, not implying good porters are dime a dozen, and I haven't made any one sided knocks (outside an occasional pun) directed toward either AI or LE. Those that say so, do not read very well or understand what I've posted. It takes (1) above average skill, honed sharper with additional and continuing experience. The average guy here does not pocess these qualities. But that is not to imply there are those outside of the profession itself, that do not pocess skills of at least this level, even though they choose not to do it as a livelihood. (2) It also requires X investment of time and money for research, testing, trial and error, and experience to know in what area to put pressure on that 'rotary file'. A large majority outside of the profession that attempt to port, do not go to such lengths.
I'm not here to tell anyone one of the other is superior. For the end user, CNC does have the advantage of consistancy completed quicker, with minimal or no manual input in the finished product. I am also not here to state hand porting is not effective. Hopefully, readers see this as approaching the issue from a more objective POV. How much are you willing to invest?
But either way, I have an arguement. If porter has the liberty to deviate port configurations due to core shift, without adverse port flow reaction where is the exact science? If it is important to have consistancy with precise stock removal (.010 here, .020 there) then allowing for core shift is self destructive. AFAIC, it can be some of both. Part of the skill in the trade is knowing where. I will state CNC consistancy should address the areas that require that extra .010 here and .020 there. Core shift should have no bearing on that amount, pinch wall notwithstanding. If the porter finds himself tweeking the CNC port that minute .010-.030 on a regular basis, tweeking the program itself may be an option.
Believe it or not, not implying good porters are dime a dozen, and I haven't made any one sided knocks (outside an occasional pun) directed toward either AI or LE. Those that say so, do not read very well or understand what I've posted. It takes (1) above average skill, honed sharper with additional and continuing experience. The average guy here does not pocess these qualities. But that is not to imply there are those outside of the profession itself, that do not pocess skills of at least this level, even though they choose not to do it as a livelihood. (2) It also requires X investment of time and money for research, testing, trial and error, and experience to know in what area to put pressure on that 'rotary file'. A large majority outside of the profession that attempt to port, do not go to such lengths.
I'm not here to tell anyone one of the other is superior. For the end user, CNC does have the advantage of consistancy completed quicker, with minimal or no manual input in the finished product. I am also not here to state hand porting is not effective. Hopefully, readers see this as approaching the issue from a more objective POV. How much are you willing to invest?
Gary with regards to what you've posted so far ,though my outlook or services sought after would be the very best.... Two things comes to mind
1.how serious is the group of people we are speaking of about are.
2. when is the time money spent ( lt1 head ) to the point of choosing another head ( converted standard 23* for ex.) or different engine all together to retain the goal they want to reach..
I am that articulate, others may not be.... so what Le or AI offers would be adequate for the average enthusiasts... Comes down to whos combos seems to work consistantly , proven performance as it were.... basically starting this thread all over again......
05-17-2006, 03:15 PM
#143
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Location: Baton Rouge, la
Posts: 989
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
my concern would be variation in flow at x- lifts ( .200- .300 etc) between ports..... the CNC will be closer in that dept. considering the time it would take a hand porter to accomplish 3 to 5 cfm differences between ports throughout the entire lift range... but what do i know, I dont post in tech everyday... Can it be done by hand, sure. Gotta few months???
CNC followed by additional hand porting/finishing is usually the choice of anyone seeking a competitive edge or more power than thy neighbor..
Can it be done by hand, sure. Gotta few months??? CNC followed by additional hand porting/finishing is usually the choice of anyone seeking a competitive edge or more power than thy neighbor..
Ummm...and I still want to talk to someone about a cam change damnet.
Last edited by 95Bird; 05-17-2006 at 03:22 PM.
05-17-2006, 03:36 PM
#144
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Location: York, PA
Posts: 203
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by A/G
Understood and acknowledged with no dispute, hence the 'good' port 'bad' port BBC designation. That has been known for a few decades by those familiar with porting.
But either way, I have an arguement. If porter has the liberty to deviate port configurations due to core shift, without adverse port flow reaction where is the exact science? If it is important to have consistancy with precise stock removal (.010 here, .020 there) then allowing for core shift is self destructive. AFAIC, it can be some of both. Part of the skill in the trade is knowing where. I will state CNC consistancy should address the areas that require that extra .010 here and .020 there. Core shift should have no bearing on that amount, pinch wall notwithstanding. If the porter finds himself tweeking the CNC port that minute .010-.030 on a regular basis, tweeking the program itself may be an option.
Believe it or not, not implying good porters are dime a dozen, and I haven't made any one sided knocks (outside an occasional pun) directed toward either AI or LE. Those that say so, do not read very well or understand what I've posted. It takes (1) above average skill, honed sharper with additional and continuing experience. The average guy here does not pocess these qualities. But that is not to imply there are those outside of the profession itself, that do not pocess skills of at least this level, even though they choose not to do it as a livelihood. (2) It also requires X investment of time and money for research, testing, trial and error, and experience to know in what area to put pressure on that 'rotary file'. A large majority outside of the profession that attempt to port, do not go to such lengths.
I'm not here to tell anyone one of the other is superior. For the end user, CNC does have the advantage of consistancy completed quicker, with minimal or no manual input in the finished product. I am also not here to state hand porting is not effective. Hopefully, readers see this as approaching the issue from a more objective POV. How much are you willing to invest?
But either way, I have an arguement. If porter has the liberty to deviate port configurations due to core shift, without adverse port flow reaction where is the exact science? If it is important to have consistancy with precise stock removal (.010 here, .020 there) then allowing for core shift is self destructive. AFAIC, it can be some of both. Part of the skill in the trade is knowing where. I will state CNC consistancy should address the areas that require that extra .010 here and .020 there. Core shift should have no bearing on that amount, pinch wall notwithstanding. If the porter finds himself tweeking the CNC port that minute .010-.030 on a regular basis, tweeking the program itself may be an option.
Believe it or not, not implying good porters are dime a dozen, and I haven't made any one sided knocks (outside an occasional pun) directed toward either AI or LE. Those that say so, do not read very well or understand what I've posted. It takes (1) above average skill, honed sharper with additional and continuing experience. The average guy here does not pocess these qualities. But that is not to imply there are those outside of the profession itself, that do not pocess skills of at least this level, even though they choose not to do it as a livelihood. (2) It also requires X investment of time and money for research, testing, trial and error, and experience to know in what area to put pressure on that 'rotary file'. A large majority outside of the profession that attempt to port, do not go to such lengths.
I'm not here to tell anyone one of the other is superior. For the end user, CNC does have the advantage of consistancy completed quicker, with minimal or no manual input in the finished product. I am also not here to state hand porting is not effective. Hopefully, readers see this as approaching the issue from a more objective POV. How much are you willing to invest?
Eww...this thread is gettin UGLY!
Anyways...having both CNC and a couple of hands...I can lend a little info.
Think of a CNC machine, as nothing more than a xerox. It is coping a HAND PORTED master.
As far as the core shift problems are concerned..you can fix this pretty easily by indicating a known point on each port, and offsetting. Although, This adds time, and inherintly money.
Everything "hardcore" must be finished by hand, due to the fact that the valve job needs worked into the port. Some people are not playing with cross cutting seats in their machines...but i know of no one having luck yet.
I don't know a "head porter" that can't work within .003 by hand. If they can't..well..you know the rest.
It's the old story...everyone that owns a welder...is a welder.
Well, I guess everyone that owns a die grinder..then must be a porter
Back to the point of the post. I have seen both, and have had work from both parties on my bench. I Think the world of Lloyd, and what trouble he goes through for the money. I don't think their is a better deal availible. In fact, I send a good bit of my customers his way, as I cannot replicate his work for the money.
Dennis
05-17-2006, 03:58 PM
#145
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VA
Posts: 57
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by 95Bird
Mine flow within a couple cfm on every port and are hand ported....yes it took months. I have seen hand ported heads that are all over the board and are off by as much as 30 cfm between ports.
Ummm...and I still want to talk to someone about a cam change damnet.
Ummm...and I still want to talk to someone about a cam change damnet.
As are mine within a couple, I was being generous....
I just know, you are not gonna crank out 4-5 sets a heads a month, that same caliber by hand..
05-17-2006, 04:59 PM
#146
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 123
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
1.how serious is the group of people we are speaking of about are.
2. when is the time money spent ( lt1 head ) to the point of choosing another head ( converted standard 23* for ex.) or different engine all together to retain the goal they want to reach..
I am that articulate, others may not be.... so what Le or AI offers would be adequate for the average enthusiasts...
2. when is the time money spent ( lt1 head ) to the point of choosing another head ( converted standard 23* for ex.) or different engine all together to retain the goal they want to reach..
I am that articulate, others may not be.... so what Le or AI offers would be adequate for the average enthusiasts...
1- If you could, explain better, the question, as I don't understand whom you are referring to. Sorry!
2- Note my question from previous post. [quote]How much are you willing to invest?[end quote]
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
I just know, you are not gonna crank out 4-5 sets a heads a month, that same caliber by hand..
Originally Posted by airflowdevelop
Think of a CNC machine, as nothing more than a xerox. It is coping a HAND PORTED master.
Everything "hardcore" must be finished by hand, due to the fact that the valve job needs worked into the port.
If there were ever an area that required post CNC hand grinding it would be that area.
I don't know a "head porter" that can't work within .003 by hand. If they can't..well..you know the rest.
If you worded that the way you intended, you must know a very elite group of porters. Are you referring to one area of one port, or the whole port? I won't even address all the ports. You must know porters that have access to 'put-on' cutters as well as conventional cutters that remove stock. I really question whether you know what .003" is. If it isn't a typo, I'm allergic to smoke. Blow it elsewhere.
Eww...this thread is gettin UGLY!
Not ugly, stupid! Or, is it stupider?
Well, I guess everyone that owns a die grinder..then must be a porter
I believe I previously addressed that well enuf.
... as I cannot replicate his work for the money.
[quote]I don't know a "head porter" that can't work within .003 by hand. If they can't..well..you know the rest.[end quote] Did I miss something here? I'm not knocking Lloyd in this post/here. I know he's human, and these are not his words.
05-17-2006, 05:01 PM
#147
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Location: Long Island, NY ; Norfolk, VA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by A/G
If you worded that the way you intended, you must know a very elite group of porters.
05-17-2006, 05:12 PM
#148
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Posts: 57
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
[QUOTE=A/G]Last first. I agree.
1- If you could, explain better, the question, as I don't understand whom you are referring to. Sorry!
2- Note my question from previous post.
1. Consumer , as in are they willing to skimp or anny up for the best they can get.
2. note : 1. which means I agree speed cost money and with the attention to detail you previously discussed ..prepare to spend some ducks !!! If not play second place. Its easier to make friends anyway...
1- If you could, explain better, the question, as I don't understand whom you are referring to. Sorry!
2- Note my question from previous post.
How much are you willing to invest?[end quote]
1. Consumer , as in are they willing to skimp or anny up for the best they can get.
2. note : 1. which means I agree speed cost money and with the attention to detail you previously discussed ..prepare to spend some ducks !!! If not play second place. Its easier to make friends anyway...
05-17-2006, 06:03 PM
#149
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Posts: 45
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally posted by A/G:"If you worded that the way you intended, you must know a very elite group of porters. Are you referring to one area of one port, or the whole port? I won't even address all the ports. You must know porters that have access to 'put-on' cutters as well as conventional cutters that remove stock. I really question whether you know what .003" is. If it isn't a typo, I'm allergic to smoke. Blow it elsewhere."
You do realize this guy has probably forgot more about head porting than most people on this post know.
You do realize this guy has probably forgot more about head porting than most people on this post know.
05-17-2006, 06:06 PM
#150
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by bhop42
Originally posted by A/G:
You do realize this guy has probably forgot more about head porting than most people on this post know.
You do realize this guy has probably forgot more about head porting than most people on this post know.