LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
05-25-2006, 12:38 PM
#226
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VA
Posts: 57
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by RealQuick
At this point...ease since we cant get it going ayway 
"race cars" can actually be very consistent....no denying that here. You know anyone with a racecar that is willing to set this up and go thru all the work of tearing down his/her racecar during racing season (i.e. trying to get this comparo going soon). Are you denying that you can predict how a car will peform by looking at the power/tq curve? Area und the curve, peaky, falling on it face,... these are all common terms that will help show a comparo between the two sets...and then we also have who makes the most hp/tq to consider
I disagree completely here. Are you saying that the hp/tq profiles will change depending on the suspension and drivetrain setup? Since they dont, track numbers dont mean that much. Hypothetical - If the heads are so evenly matched based on hp/tq profiles from the dyno (i.e. same peak hp/tq & same rpm and pretty much the same tq curve, they should perform the same when you bolt a tranny and chassis to it Dont put the cart befoe the horse here...typically a engine gets dynod to see how hp/tq looks, then they can choose their stall, gear, know when to shift, etc once its in the car. This is done before going to the track when getting the car setup. Horse = dyno, cart = track
Dyno is definitley easier because of less variables. No dedicated racecar will ever be able to be used fo tis comparo. Yes a true racecar that launches the same everytime and shifts the same everytime wil be good, but they need to be run on the same day with the same DA. Atleast with a dyno there are tons of unbiased shops that have engine dynos and for a fee will do the work.
"race cars" can actually be very consistent....no denying that here. You know anyone with a racecar that is willing to set this up and go thru all the work of tearing down his/her racecar during racing season (i.e. trying to get this comparo going soon). Are you denying that you can predict how a car will peform by looking at the power/tq curve? Area und the curve, peaky, falling on it face,... these are all common terms that will help show a comparo between the two sets...and then we also have who makes the most hp/tq to consider
I disagree completely here. Are you saying that the hp/tq profiles will change depending on the suspension and drivetrain setup? Since they dont, track numbers dont mean that much. Hypothetical - If the heads are so evenly matched based on hp/tq profiles from the dyno (i.e. same peak hp/tq & same rpm and pretty much the same tq curve, they should perform the same when you bolt a tranny and chassis to it Dont put the cart befoe the horse here...typically a engine gets dynod to see how hp/tq looks, then they can choose their stall, gear, know when to shift, etc once its in the car. This is done before going to the track when getting the car setup. Horse = dyno, cart = track
Dyno is definitley easier because of less variables. No dedicated racecar will ever be able to be used fo tis comparo. Yes a true racecar that launches the same everytime and shifts the same everytime wil be good, but they need to be run on the same day with the same DA. Atleast with a dyno there are tons of unbiased shops that have engine dynos and for a fee will do the work.
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
Last edited by Joseph Overton; 05-25-2006 at 12:41 PM.
05-25-2006, 12:41 PM
#227
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 123
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by RealQuick
You know anyone with a racecar that is willing to set this up and go thru all the work of tearing down his/her racecar during racing season?
I disagree completely here. Are you saying that the hp/tq profiles will change depending on the suspension and drivetrain setup?
You misunderstood my point. Dyno testing can be very valuable in testing and finalizing a given tune, as I already noted. My point is, if gains can be seen on the dyno, but not realized on the track, the #s are merely marketing hype. Are you denying any gain (or loss) on the dyno will NOT automatically track linear results on the track? If it was automatic, we COULD race dynos. Dyno #s are good and should be noted, as this is the customary form of comparo used in marketing. One head may be superior at a given flow range, the other elsewhere. Don't we want to know which is the better overall head? You want to be the guy losing a race but bragging that your car makes more dyno HP?
Of note, we are testing one variable, the heads. Period!! We don't CARE about suspension or other driveline variables, as long as they retain CONSISTANT track performance. View them as just a means of obtaining the info you desire. Our intent is not to dial in a race car. It is to test one variable. How many thousands of $$ you wanna spend? We DO care how one given change will actually alter performance, in this case getting from point A to point B the quickest. I DID note it would be ideal to offer a package from each end of the spectrum. How many ways must I state the same thing? Despite the illusion to the contrary, most here are not familiar with how to conduct a legitimate test.
Other than the obvious time savings, the main value of a dyno over track testing, is to test and identify minute gains (or losses) that normally could not be identified consistanly in track testing. Example; a change generates a 4 hp gain on dyno. This in all likihood, will not show up at the track. This is NOT to say this minute gain would not augment a different minute change executed at a later time. The dyno can identify a 3 hp gain here, 5 there, and pretty soon you're showing a 20 HP improvement. THIS is a value exclusive to a dyno, as this collection of changes will show something at the track. How much (if any) amount of gain? That is why verification is necessary. However, this is not the circumstance here. We are changing ONE variable.
... but they need to be run on the same day with the same DA.
I addressed that previously.
At least with a dyno there are tons of unbiased shops that have engine dynos and for a fee will do the work.
Do what you gotta do.
05-25-2006, 12:52 PM
#228
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Location: Bridgewater, MA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
Wow ! alot of discrepancy! But theres one other variable here and it kind of rest in the middle, no matter the circumstance..and thats tuning for each application...whether its a dyno or track ..theres is no universal a/f ratio for any given combo, so its alot more complicated as far as " who makes more power" with a cam head package..Dyno's have correction factors for air temp/baro.Let alone is this person mechanically inclined enough to install the cams as suggested.
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
I thought I was pretty clear. Anyone that thinks an engine that makes good dyno numbers may not be good at the track isnt thinking. Converting that power/torque to the ground relies soley on how the car is setup. If want to see whose heads or heads/cam is better I'll check the dyno ... less variables plain and simple. Bolt the damn heads on and tune it until it makes the best power/tq. Then do the same for the other setup and give that one its own fresh tune. Thats eliminates the "each setup needs a different tune" arguement. Then overlay the graphs with the best curves from each combo and compare. NO MORE VARIABLES.
05-25-2006, 12:57 PM
#229
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bridgewater, MA
Posts: 5,645
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by A/G
Any CONSISTANT car will do. I just noted an established dialed in race car, as that would be logical first choice and the standard to compare others to.
I disagree completely here. Are you saying that the hp/tq profiles will change depending on the suspension and drivetrain setup?
You misunderstood my point. Dyno testing can be very valuable in testing and finalizing a given tune, as I already noted. My point is, if gains can be seen on the dyno, but not realized on the track, the #s are merely marketing hype. Are you denying any gain (or loss) on the dyno will NOT automatically track linear results on the track? If it was automatic, we COULD race dynos. Dyno #s are good and should be noted, as this is the customary form of comparo used in marketing. One head may be superior at a given flow range, the other elsewhere. Don't we want to know which is the better overall head? You want to be the guy losing a race but bragging that your car makes more dyno HP?
Of note, we are testing one variable, the heads. Period!! We don't CARE about suspension or other driveline variables, as long as they retain CONSISTANT track performance. View them as just a means of obtaining the info you desire. Our intent is not to dial in a race car. It is to test one variable. How many thousands of $$ you wanna spend? We DO care how one given change will actually alter performance, in this case getting from point A to point B the quickest. I DID note it would be ideal to offer a package from each end of the spectrum. How many ways must I state the same thing? Despite the illusion to the contrary, most here are not familiar with how to conduct a legitimate test.
Other than the obvious time savings, the main value of a dyno over track testing, is to test and identify minute gains (or losses) that normally could not be identified consistanly in track testing. Example; a change generates a 4 hp gain on dyno. This in all likihood, will not show up at the track. This is NOT to say this minute gain would not augment a different minute change executed at a later time. The dyno can identify a 3 hp gain here, 5 there, and pretty soon you're showing a 20 HP improvement. THIS is a value exclusive to a dyno, as this collection of changes will show something at the track. How much (if any) amount of gain? That is why verification is necessary. However, this is not the circumstance here. We are changing ONE variable.
... but they need to be run on the same day with the same DA.
I addressed that previously.
At least with a dyno there are tons of unbiased shops that have engine dynos and for a fee will do the work.
Do what you gotta do.
I disagree completely here. Are you saying that the hp/tq profiles will change depending on the suspension and drivetrain setup?
You misunderstood my point. Dyno testing can be very valuable in testing and finalizing a given tune, as I already noted. My point is, if gains can be seen on the dyno, but not realized on the track, the #s are merely marketing hype. Are you denying any gain (or loss) on the dyno will NOT automatically track linear results on the track? If it was automatic, we COULD race dynos. Dyno #s are good and should be noted, as this is the customary form of comparo used in marketing. One head may be superior at a given flow range, the other elsewhere. Don't we want to know which is the better overall head? You want to be the guy losing a race but bragging that your car makes more dyno HP?
Of note, we are testing one variable, the heads. Period!! We don't CARE about suspension or other driveline variables, as long as they retain CONSISTANT track performance. View them as just a means of obtaining the info you desire. Our intent is not to dial in a race car. It is to test one variable. How many thousands of $$ you wanna spend? We DO care how one given change will actually alter performance, in this case getting from point A to point B the quickest. I DID note it would be ideal to offer a package from each end of the spectrum. How many ways must I state the same thing? Despite the illusion to the contrary, most here are not familiar with how to conduct a legitimate test.
Other than the obvious time savings, the main value of a dyno over track testing, is to test and identify minute gains (or losses) that normally could not be identified consistanly in track testing. Example; a change generates a 4 hp gain on dyno. This in all likihood, will not show up at the track. This is NOT to say this minute gain would not augment a different minute change executed at a later time. The dyno can identify a 3 hp gain here, 5 there, and pretty soon you're showing a 20 HP improvement. THIS is a value exclusive to a dyno, as this collection of changes will show something at the track. How much (if any) amount of gain? That is why verification is necessary. However, this is not the circumstance here. We are changing ONE variable.
... but they need to be run on the same day with the same DA.
I addressed that previously.
At least with a dyno there are tons of unbiased shops that have engine dynos and for a fee will do the work.
Do what you gotta do.
05-25-2006, 01:14 PM
#230
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 1,114
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
Wow ! alot of discrepancy! But theres one other variable here and it kind of rest in the middle, no matter the circumstance..and thats tuning for each application...whether its a dyno or track ..theres is no universal a/f ratio for any given combo, so its alot more complicated as far as " who makes more power" with a cam head package..Dyno's have correction factors for air temp/baro.Let alone is this person mechanically inclined enough to install the cams as suggested.
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
My question to everyone bickering over this would be, why? Do the supporters of either porter honestly think there is more then 10-15 HP(probably not even) difference between the heads? For all the time most of you guys spent on here bickering you could have been fine tuning your car to make that much more HP with either set, or setting up your car to be perfect for your needs to run the better time at the track whether in a straight line or through the twisties. This **** is all just about EGO's, which has a way of turning people into serious *******s. Believe it or not coexistance for all porters can be peaceful even if they have comparable packages offered.
05-25-2006, 01:19 PM
#231
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Six Mile, SC, USA
Posts: 2,054
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
OK. Here's an offer. My car is what it is. Send me what ever Heads/Cam packages you want. I will run them and document the passes.
This type if testing might take several months but we would have one car, and know everything about it.
I suspect most would not like this since it is a 'race' car but the car is very consistant and even more once the A3 goes in.
The bolt on motor that WAS in the car is out and I have a 100k mile stock bottom end on the stand that I am cleaning up. I could easily put all my stock stuff on the stock bottom end run it as the base line. Pull out and put on the H/C that are sent to me.
The only thing I would like in exchange is gaskets paid for and someone to tune them. I can do my own tuning but would rather an independant do it so there is no bias.
I typically run 1/8th mile at Greer Dragway in Greer, SC or Ware Shoals in Ware shoals, SC and will tow down to Carolina Dragway as often as needed for this (3+hours) but it is worth the tow, CD hooks ALL the time, that is not an excuse there.
This type if testing might take several months but we would have one car, and know everything about it.
I suspect most would not like this since it is a 'race' car but the car is very consistant and even more once the A3 goes in.
The bolt on motor that WAS in the car is out and I have a 100k mile stock bottom end on the stand that I am cleaning up. I could easily put all my stock stuff on the stock bottom end run it as the base line. Pull out and put on the H/C that are sent to me.
The only thing I would like in exchange is gaskets paid for and someone to tune them. I can do my own tuning but would rather an independant do it so there is no bias.
I typically run 1/8th mile at Greer Dragway in Greer, SC or Ware Shoals in Ware shoals, SC and will tow down to Carolina Dragway as often as needed for this (3+hours) but it is worth the tow, CD hooks ALL the time, that is not an excuse there.
05-25-2006, 01:21 PM
#232
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 1,114
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Also an in car comparison would take more then 1-2 days to do anyways. I mean really, how many people put a new motor in an already setup car and run the fastest possible? None that i know of, and i think thats a pretty fair statement. I can say that our rail certainly isn't near being as fast as it should be after going from a mild 468 to a stout 572....and we have been tuning suspension, fuel, etc for a matter of months now. Even on a race car the Heads/Cam power profile/tq curve can make suspension changes to maximize a setup necessary also.
05-25-2006, 01:58 PM
#233
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Six Mile, SC, USA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Agree with this and would need the suppliers to understand that it would not be a 2 day thing on the car.
This might take too long to actually find the answer but the ETs could be corrected using the DA formulas and such that are out there.
Oh well, I'll just go back to bolt on racing and see how far into the 11.7s I can push this tin can.
This might take too long to actually find the answer but the ETs could be corrected using the DA formulas and such that are out there.
Oh well, I'll just go back to bolt on racing and see how far into the 11.7s I can push this tin can.
Originally Posted by 89385formula
Also an in car comparison would take more then 1-2 days to do anyways. I mean really, how many people put a new motor in an already setup car and run the fastest possible? None that i know of, and i think thats a pretty fair statement. I can say that our rail certainly isn't near being as fast as it should be after going from a mild 468 to a stout 572....and we have been tuning suspension, fuel, etc for a matter of months now. Even on a race car the Heads/Cam power profile/tq curve can make suspension changes to maximize a setup necessary also.
05-25-2006, 02:09 PM
#234
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 1,114
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Shon Herron
Agree with this and would need the suppliers to understand that it would not be a 2 day thing on the car.
This might take too long to actually find the answer but the ETs could be corrected using the DA formulas and such that are out there.
Oh well, I'll just go back to bolt on racing and see how far into the 11.7s I can push this tin can.
This might take too long to actually find the answer but the ETs could be corrected using the DA formulas and such that are out there.
Oh well, I'll just go back to bolt on racing and see how far into the 11.7s I can push this tin can.
05-25-2006, 02:14 PM
#235
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Joseph Overton
Wow ! alot of discrepancy! But theres one other variable here and it kind of rest in the middle, no matter the circumstance..and thats tuning for each application...whether its a dyno or track ..theres is no universal a/f ratio for any given combo, so its alot more complicated as far as " who makes more power" with a cam head package..Dyno's have correction factors for air temp/baro.Let alone is this person mechanically inclined enough to install the cams as suggested.
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
But there again engine wise, oil temp, coolant temp must be exact....
Basically what I see happening here is Bret or his customers..Are trying to alleviate everything else that motivates a car. Thing is, as a cam designer the "whole" car is took into consideration ... HMMMMMMMMMMM makes ya think don't it??? Whats next we both need to run the same spring pressures???
I'm pretty sure you've been around a dyno before... plus if it was at a dyno shop that knew what they were doing weather variables along with cam/springs installs would be taken care of better than a track OR the average guy can do. You tell them a spring spec to set your springs up at (cause we will not agree on this) and we agree on certain valvetrain parts OR just supply them as well.
We start off with a set of variables for a package, ex) A4, 2800 stall, 3.73's, 3500lbs, 6200rpm max RPM/shift point.
You can't use a engine dyno to test that?
Do sweep tests from 2800-6200rpm, take the average HP and TQ numbers and there ya go. Hell you can even work it so you can give the average numbers that every gear would see.
1st = 2800-6200rpm, 2nd = 3300-6200, 3rd = 3800-6200rpm for a 4L60.
The tuner would give the motor the A/F ratio it likes, the engine would be started at a set temp for the oil, water etc. (200°F oil, 160°F water)
So this is not that hard to do in reality.
Not saying that's the specs I want to start from but it's a shot at it.
A car test would be great.... problem is you can't get this all done on a car and worked out in any decent amount of time for things to be back to back with the same conditions.
Bret
05-25-2006, 02:17 PM
#236
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Location: Six Mile, SC, USA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
A car test would be great.... problem is you can't get this all done on a car and worked out in any decent amount of time for things to be back to back with the same conditions.
Bret
Bret
05-25-2006, 02:18 PM
#237
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Six Mile, SC, USA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by 89385formula
11.7's...come on now, I thought your expectations were higher then that Shon.
05-25-2006, 02:33 PM
#238
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Shon,
That would be great but would track prep be the same? Would one package make more TQ at launch than another and cause traction issues that can't be dialed in? The DA correction would be great but there is so many variables to the install and FWIW a guy who puts up his car for this is going to be biased one way or another. You have put up your opinion on things before, just like everyone else so it would be impossible to get a non biased owner operator.
Bret
That would be great but would track prep be the same? Would one package make more TQ at launch than another and cause traction issues that can't be dialed in? The DA correction would be great but there is so many variables to the install and FWIW a guy who puts up his car for this is going to be biased one way or another. You have put up your opinion on things before, just like everyone else so it would be impossible to get a non biased owner operator.
Bret
05-25-2006, 02:43 PM
#239
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Six Mile, SC, USA
Posts: 2,054
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Track Prep at Carolina Dragway is NEVER an issue, that is why we tow the car 3+ hours on a TH night to race down there and work on Friday AM. TH or Sat night it hooks the best around. There is another track not an hour from here that I will never go to due to the traction there.
If you have traction problems at CD it is b/c the car is set up ****ty.
www.carolinadragway.com
The biased part will be difficult, but if I 'gave' my car up for this test and let someone else do the work would that help? Do I need to take my car to a shop that doesnt care about the results, just to have the results accomplished? The car is sitting right now with no motor in it, all it needs is a trans (ya'll can pick your poison there too).
LMAO, cant believe I just posted I would just send the car off to where ever to use as a test subject but it dont matter to me, the car did what I wanted it to do, take the bolt on record and moved it further than most are willing to take it, so the car is not much more than a driveway ornament at the moment.
If you have traction problems at CD it is b/c the car is set up ****ty.
www.carolinadragway.com
The biased part will be difficult, but if I 'gave' my car up for this test and let someone else do the work would that help? Do I need to take my car to a shop that doesnt care about the results, just to have the results accomplished? The car is sitting right now with no motor in it, all it needs is a trans (ya'll can pick your poison there too).
LMAO, cant believe I just posted I would just send the car off to where ever to use as a test subject but it dont matter to me, the car did what I wanted it to do, take the bolt on record and moved it further than most are willing to take it, so the car is not much more than a driveway ornament at the moment.
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Shon,
That would be great but would track prep be the same? Would one package make more TQ at launch than another and cause traction issues that can't be dialed in? The DA correction would be great but there is so many variables to the install and FWIW a guy who puts up his car for this is going to be biased one way or another. You have put up your opinion on things before, just like everyone else so it would be impossible to get a non biased owner operator.
Bret
That would be great but would track prep be the same? Would one package make more TQ at launch than another and cause traction issues that can't be dialed in? The DA correction would be great but there is so many variables to the install and FWIW a guy who puts up his car for this is going to be biased one way or another. You have put up your opinion on things before, just like everyone else so it would be impossible to get a non biased owner operator.
Bret
05-26-2006, 05:50 AM
#240
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Long Island, NY ; Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,542
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Shon Herron
The biased part will be difficult, but if I 'gave' my car up for this test and let someone else do the work would that help? Do I need to take my car to a shop that doesnt care about the results, just to have the results accomplished? The car is sitting right now with no motor in it, all it needs is a trans (ya'll can pick your poison there too).
LMAO, cant believe I just posted I would just send the car off to where ever to use as a test subject but it dont matter to me, the car did what I wanted it to do, take the bolt on record and moved it further than most are willing to take it, so the car is not much more than a driveway ornament at the moment.
LMAO, cant believe I just posted I would just send the car off to where ever to use as a test subject but it dont matter to me, the car did what I wanted it to do, take the bolt on record and moved it further than most are willing to take it, so the car is not much more than a driveway ornament at the moment.