LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
#241
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
This would be a better starting point. Oh well.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
Originally Posted by IllusionalTA
Shon, i offered a brand new just rebuilt plane jane motor w/ a 847 cam.. Nobody bit.. I have a water brake local to me that'll more than happily strap it down.... This will never go down.. Just gonna be a bunch of pissin' in the wind..
#242
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Shon Herron
This would be a better starting point. Oh well.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
So many high 14 second cars now owned by dumb kids...
#243
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Gary,
You are correct in the theory that some areas in the port are less critical than others. What specifically are you looking for? What areas that are critical to keep to these tolerances? How I measure to verify this?
You don't really have to beat around the bush with me...ask exactly what you are thinking...and I will do my best to answer honestly. I don't believe in keeping "secrets" from the customer.
I will provide a brief overview of what happens on the average head that comes into the shop.
1. Guide centers on one port are located and measured
2. Valve job is roughed in, withing .020 thou of finished height
3. Top of throat angle is cut to pre-calculated size. Form tool is set with micrometer fixture, and reverfied after cut, with either an inside mic, or dial calipers.
4. Intake port location is indexed to bolt centers of intake.
5. Now comes the hard part. After a look at the core, and some math, I come up with a first shot gameplan including the sized that I want particular ports to be. I setup some snap guages to .020 smaller than those sizes, and start cutting. Back and forth of the bench, watching airspeed, at this point I have a good idea of what it should flow, just making sure to keep the port smooth as far as airspeed is concerned.
6. Once the port is about where it should be, then it becomes time to "tune it up". This is done with 60 grit cartridge rolls. I will mow off the .020 I left in the port, starting with the less critical areas. You can setup some snaps, as go no-go guages. I like a couple thou spread, and work areas like the fast wall to keep them as flat as possible..no low spots. Obviously, critical areas get more care, and we will go back to the flowbench as necessary to tune up the SSR's and throat, or an area of choke, if it exist.
7. Finish valve job. Last time on the bench.
8. Port gets digitized, and then duplicated.
So up to this point, I guess everything makes sense...right. Number 8, is a comfort option...Some heads do not go through this number 8. They go through many hours of 5,6,and7 repeated 7 more times...or how ever many ports we are dealing with. I guess your main concern is how trustful you can be that your porter will do 5,6,7 again and again...not get tired...lazy...or want to screw you over by giving you one great port, and 7 turds.
9. All cylinders are verified to be equal within a pre-determined amount of flow / airspeed.
...so here we are...cylinder to cylinder...very accurate heads, port to port.
I hope I answered your question?
You are correct in the theory that some areas in the port are less critical than others. What specifically are you looking for? What areas that are critical to keep to these tolerances? How I measure to verify this?
You don't really have to beat around the bush with me...ask exactly what you are thinking...and I will do my best to answer honestly. I don't believe in keeping "secrets" from the customer.
I will provide a brief overview of what happens on the average head that comes into the shop.
1. Guide centers on one port are located and measured
2. Valve job is roughed in, withing .020 thou of finished height
3. Top of throat angle is cut to pre-calculated size. Form tool is set with micrometer fixture, and reverfied after cut, with either an inside mic, or dial calipers.
4. Intake port location is indexed to bolt centers of intake.
5. Now comes the hard part. After a look at the core, and some math, I come up with a first shot gameplan including the sized that I want particular ports to be. I setup some snap guages to .020 smaller than those sizes, and start cutting. Back and forth of the bench, watching airspeed, at this point I have a good idea of what it should flow, just making sure to keep the port smooth as far as airspeed is concerned.
6. Once the port is about where it should be, then it becomes time to "tune it up". This is done with 60 grit cartridge rolls. I will mow off the .020 I left in the port, starting with the less critical areas. You can setup some snaps, as go no-go guages. I like a couple thou spread, and work areas like the fast wall to keep them as flat as possible..no low spots. Obviously, critical areas get more care, and we will go back to the flowbench as necessary to tune up the SSR's and throat, or an area of choke, if it exist.
7. Finish valve job. Last time on the bench.
8. Port gets digitized, and then duplicated.
So up to this point, I guess everything makes sense...right. Number 8, is a comfort option...Some heads do not go through this number 8. They go through many hours of 5,6,and7 repeated 7 more times...or how ever many ports we are dealing with. I guess your main concern is how trustful you can be that your porter will do 5,6,7 again and again...not get tired...lazy...or want to screw you over by giving you one great port, and 7 turds.
9. All cylinders are verified to be equal within a pre-determined amount of flow / airspeed.
...so here we are...cylinder to cylinder...very accurate heads, port to port.
I hope I answered your question?
#244
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
But do we want all ports to be exactly the same? ...that is the real question? Who cares if we have 8 exact copies of each other...Do we NEED 8 exact copies....riddle me that?
Dennis
Dennis
#245
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by airflowdevelop
But do we want all ports to be exactly the same? ...that is the real question? Who cares if we have 8 exact copies of each other...Do we NEED 8 exact copies....riddle me that?
Dennis
Dennis
#246
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Shon Herron
This would be a better starting point. Oh well.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
On a side note, went to the track to watch last night, the LT1s out there are a disgrace, slaw as ****, cammed LT1 car running 85MPH and even had the benefit of spinning off the line.....
#247
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by airflowdevelop
But do we want all ports to be exactly the same? ...that is the real question? Who cares if we have 8 exact copies of each other...Do we NEED 8 exact copies....riddle me that?
Dennis
Dennis
#248
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
exactly...when you are that far into it...especially with certain manifold designs (centrally located inlet, and lateraly located inlet), it becomes imparitive that you treat the motor more like 8 briggs instead of 1 v8.
Dennis
Dennis
#249
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Gary,
I don't know what cylinder head guys you hang out with...but .015 is a football field. Also, do not confuse street car heads with race car heads. I am going to spend a couple hundred hours on a manifold or set of heads for the average street guy that has a grand to spend...NO. But in the industry, do people spend this much time making everything perfect...YES! Infact, a number of people have started doing portwork with and only with a torque plate installed!
Also, all master ports are digitized. I can tell you the location of any point in the head you want to know...and cylinder to cylinder.
Dennis
I don't know what cylinder head guys you hang out with...but .015 is a football field. Also, do not confuse street car heads with race car heads. I am going to spend a couple hundred hours on a manifold or set of heads for the average street guy that has a grand to spend...NO. But in the industry, do people spend this much time making everything perfect...YES! Infact, a number of people have started doing portwork with and only with a torque plate installed!
Also, all master ports are digitized. I can tell you the location of any point in the head you want to know...and cylinder to cylinder.
Dennis
#252
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
I just skimmed all 19 pages of this thread and I have to say that Bret and Joe O really need to take their childish bickering to PMs so the rest of us can have a civil discussion and maybe learn a thing or two. After seeing you two trash this thread I can't imagine I'd ever buy anything from either of you. Neither of you seems to care that some of us are here to learn, and your pissing contest will stop that from happening when the thread is locked.
On the other hand I really appreciate Dennis stopping by this board to share his knowledge. It's a real treat to learn from guys that really know their stuff. I've been a gearhead since I was a kid, so guys like Dennis are celebrities. Also, thanks to the other level headed machinists that contributed in a productive way.
I've had some work done by Lloyd (SB2 intake and SBC heads) and his work is as good as the average person can get, and the price and service are unbeatable.
There should be a back to back test of AI and LE head cam and intake packages. How hard could it be to put a package from each company on a flat top 355 and strap it to a dyno? Just be sure both packages were designed for that setup and that the builder didn't know the package would be used for this test. I have a brand new 355 short block I'd offer, but it has -26cc pistons.
On the other hand I really appreciate Dennis stopping by this board to share his knowledge. It's a real treat to learn from guys that really know their stuff. I've been a gearhead since I was a kid, so guys like Dennis are celebrities. Also, thanks to the other level headed machinists that contributed in a productive way.
I've had some work done by Lloyd (SB2 intake and SBC heads) and his work is as good as the average person can get, and the price and service are unbeatable.
There should be a back to back test of AI and LE head cam and intake packages. How hard could it be to put a package from each company on a flat top 355 and strap it to a dyno? Just be sure both packages were designed for that setup and that the builder didn't know the package would be used for this test. I have a brand new 355 short block I'd offer, but it has -26cc pistons.
#253
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by A/G
Seeing no other person chose to question that statement, it is time for me to. Relax guys!
I SERIOUSLY question the legitimacy of that statement. Based on your wording, not convinced your believe it either. Nonetheless, having been posted by you, I'm requesting of you a link to any testing that would substantiate this claim. I dislike idea this is just more internet BS. I'd think you would have done some homework to verify that statement in lieu of blindly spreading questionable data. I await your response. Thanks Bret!
BTW gang, this goes back to post #81.
I SERIOUSLY question the legitimacy of that statement. Based on your wording, not convinced your believe it either. Nonetheless, having been posted by you, I'm requesting of you a link to any testing that would substantiate this claim. I dislike idea this is just more internet BS. I'd think you would have done some homework to verify that statement in lieu of blindly spreading questionable data. I await your response. Thanks Bret!
BTW gang, this goes back to post #81.
What is your background? To be frank....it is pretty obvious that you have little knowledge of what goes on in the real world. As I sometimes need to say to "new" HP customers...."DISCONNECT YOUR COMPUTER, AND PUT THE MAGAZINES DOWN NOW"!
Serdi's are great machines for production shops. It is possible with the right equipment, to cut a fairly true seat with a form tool cutter. But for serious HP stuff, It is almost ALWAYS a benefit, to cut your seats .005 short of there destination, and sharpen them up with a stone.
Even in industrial machining, there is no such thing as a "precision cutting" machine...but I am sure you have heard of "precision grinders" before. If you have a properly prepped stone, and the correct skill, you can polish the fur on a fly's ***.
I am not sure why you find it necessary to question everything that anyone says, if the reason is because you would like to learn something...then stop typing, and starting listening. As the old saying goes, you can never learn anything with your mouth open.