96speed

1.9" installed height, comp 7/16th studs.

I'll take some notes and report back to class . Thanks for the help!

Ryan

INTMD8

Just wondering if you tested one of your 977's after removing them?

I only ask because I had a set die with only 1000 miles on them. (well, they lost about 35lbs).

1racerdude

I have said on this board many times that springs will loose 15-25lbs after a few heat cycles and should be purchased accordingly.(nobody listens)
There are exceptions but they cost $500.00+ a set and most don't want to spend the money.
Most don't remeasure them unless they have a problem. "If it ain't breaking up at 6500RPM's it's good to go",until the get to there next valve job.

96speed

Jim and 'Dude: I'll be honest...

I told my builder what I wanted: light spring pressure and as much cam as we can get (that will work with the setup). He calls Cam Motions and orders a cam - which I've yet to see the card from . No problem. A friend of mine has a similar cam built by Cam Motions. He tells them he wants to run the 977 spring, and they say "we'll do our best" . Her runs the 977 and his motor gets on the dyno and does the same thing: 4XX rwhp at 5xxx rpm.

So, I'm led to believe my builder didn't tell me the "We'll see what we can do" part since he already sold me the 977s. Both cams are 25x/26x solid rollers.

I recently got a 0-600psi ProForm valvespring pressure checker (after the topend tear down). I'm going to throw on a 977 and see what it reads. However, would 35lbs cost me 1200rpm? Many serious guys (including yourself) recommend more spring than less. Would you run a safety margin that close? I'm asking if I lost 35lbs on the spring, would that kill power and show symptoms like I have?

Ryan

1racerdude

How much did ya have on the seat?
A cam that size should have Ohhh 230-250 seat and 675-700@.750 lift. All after break in figuring ya gonna loose 25lb's.
I have a set of Crowers now that are 265 seat and 720@.750 with 2.0 installed height(one of those 500 dollar sets) I wouldn't run COMP. I was willing to try them again after 25 years and a buddy put a set on his car. He changed 1-2 per drag night(broken) and he went with Isky Tool Room and no more problem. Springs are available but it's just the price for GOOD ones.
I got an idea---- get a set of titanum@$1500.00 a set

96speed

Holy funky butt lovin' . I'm gonna stick with golf now!

One of the restriction for my car was the stock valves. So, the max lift was <.610". Again, I still do not have a cam card after 2 years .

I'll check what the pressure is on these 943s before I bolt the covers on. The guys who really know what they are doing on this board recommend to always check pressure (which makes sense) - the reason I bought this spring pressure checker sucka .

I've recently realized why I'm gonna stick with my LT1 heads: There is much more to getting a motor to run than a grinder and some cartridges. There are plenty of things to do to draw out the power...not just the major bling parts .

Ryan

1racerdude

That guy I said was having the spring problems had stock "castings"(very heavily modded flow 306 with 2.0 I) on a 383 running 10.30's with a bunch more still there with more tuning. After a year he has got it sorted where ya can pay attention to the tuning and not "what's wrong with it now".
Yea a lot more to it than bolting one together and going have fun.
I would pull my cam,get the numbers off of it and call Cam Motion and talk to Terry(225=926-6110).He can give ya the poop on your cam and the springs to run with it and where to get them if ya got the numbers off of the cam.
IMO it is better to over spring(not 100#) than to have the valves floating or bouncing off of the seat.
My springs with the 260 seat are tripple(three springs not two and a dampener) and are 1.625 DIA trying for spring longevity.

96speed

Another tidbit of info was that I have been running the notorious crane 11522 lifters and guess what? 3 sets showed plenty of pitting. After checing the cam it looks like the cam needs to come out before it ruins a set of lifters.

So...everyone...especially Mindgame...was right: run good stuff from day one unless you want to replace it!

So...yes, I'm going to pull the cam. Either have it cleaned up or a set of two new cams ground. One for the LT1 intake and one for the single plane - to give a solid back to back comparsion.

This has been a very involved "stroker build" . Can't say it hasn't been interesting though I've learn alot .

Ryan

Mindgame

"Pay me now or pay me later", will always be an experienced racer's mantra.

If you need a source for cams drop me a line. I know a guy who does an excellent job and is very personalized.

Good luck.

-Mindgame

1racerdude

I always say "don't cost but a quarter more to go first class"
Paying twice hurts that's why a lot of people throw in the towel.

97 RedSS

How do you guys determine if your valves are "floating"? I know most of the time you can hear them on the dyno and usually you can see it on the dyno graph also. My power also peaks at 5800 and drops fairly drastically from there to 6500. I know my 383 will shift the curve to left a little but I wasn't expecting it to shift that much. My dyno graph isn't eratic either which I usually see when someones springs are shot.
Im running the Crane 99893 Springs w/ my GTP-6 cam(236/242, .568/.592)

Looks like your setup is coming together nicely Ryan! I'll have to check it out when I'm around Houston sometime...

Cody

Jason Short

I have been consulting with Ryan on his combo through all this.....he just revealed the other constraint we were dealing with. The Crane 11522 lifters. Most of you guys remember my experience with them. I ran them in my solid roller 396 and the motor ran GREAT for 8500 miles, both at the track and on the street. However, that was back when there was not alot of info on them. I followed what a couple others were doing at the time by running those lifters with the 943 Pacalloys. In the end it cost me a set of lifters, a machined block (~$1300), and a cam when a lifter failed because (according to Crane) of too much valvespring. So, it ended up costing me over $2000 and I consider myself fortunate that it didnt mess up more stuff.

Anyway, fast forward to now. I have however had great sucess when using the 11522 lifters with a light solid roller valvespring.....the 977s. I tested my theory in a cheaper street motor that I was running and had no problems (comp cams custom grind). Ryan's engine builder supposedly spoke with Cam motions about running a cam that was compatible with the spring he told them Ryan would be running (977s). We both trusted that it would be fine. Wrong.

I then built a motor for a friend of mine (stroker, ported stock heads, etc..) very similar to Ryans valvetrain. I called Cam motions to order a cam since *apparently* they could make a cam that worked with the 977s (since Ryans builder told him that they could). My buddy was running the better 11552 lifters and not the 11522 lifters....so that didnt seem to be an issue. Cam motions went ahead with the grind based on me giving them the specs of the 977, but didnt really say much more. All we wanted was just a baby solid roller.....my sense now is that even Cam motions small solid rollers are quite aggressive.

Anyway, the other motor Ryan was talking about in his previous post is the motor I built for a friend. It made killer power up to a point.....400rw at 4900rpms. Then it flatlined. I knew right away it had to be valvesprings. Ryans motor a couple months later did the same thing, which confirmed to me that is was indeed the springs. Lesson learned.

After all this, I suggested to Ryan to buy new valvesprings (which I sold him), and based on my experience to buy better lifters at this time....which is what he is doing/did now.

My experience in all this is that you can only learn from experience. I have followed others by using (and seemed to have success with) these mismatched (unknown to me at the time) parts, listened to engine builders, provided valvespring specs to cam grinders, etc... Nothing works except experience.

Pay now or pay later. Solid rollers are not a "budget" alternative.....you gotta buy the bling.

My lessons learned:

1. Crane parts suck overall
2. Crane's lack of publishing conditions of which to use (valvespring, rpm, etc..) their products within. They should either discontinue these 11522 lifters or inform people in which application they should be used in. Seems like alot of their customers are doing the R&D for them.
3. Cam motions makes great cams, but even their small solid rollers should be required to use a near "race" type valvespring and lifter.
5. If using the 11522 lifter, do not run a Cam motions grind. Comp solid rollers seem to be less aggressive (and do work well).
6. If using the 11522 lifter, do NOT use the Comp 943 Pacalloy springs
7. If using the 943 spring, i would only run EndureX, Crower (hippo), or Isky RedZone lifters

Jason

INTMD8

Yeah, I expected a 10% drop in pressure, not 23%.

I just replaced them with PSI max life CT1225 springs. (set up at 190/415) Hopefully they fare better.

96speed

Cody: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your cam is going to peak there regardless. I was surprised to hear (from a handful of different cam guys) that it takes quite a bit more duration to get rpm (and make power...you can spin it up all day) than I thought. Drop me a line next time you're down.

Jason pretty much laid everything out .

Ryan

SStrokerAce

Ryan,

I read this thread and left wondering this...

How come nobody here making any choices to fix your problem did anything with any actual data?

To me going from a 155lbs seated 440 rate to a 240lbs seated 550 rate spring is not really based on any data, just this is what works for me on anything so lets throw that at the situation. IMHO it's way overkill and causing you more issues in other areas.

55% increase in seated pressure is unreal. Let alone the 36% increase in pressure over the nose if it's only .600 lift. The deflection issues resulting from this increase are really going to cause some issues.

I base my thoughts on this completely on the fact that you have zero specs on the cam or cam lobes. This exersize would be easy if you just provided someone who could pick out a spring for you with max lift, .050 duration and .200 duration. With those 3 things you could get pretty close to the valvespring you needed easily. Worse yet is that Cam Motion did not step up and spec a spring for your application, or nobody asked them. Telling them you want to run XXX spring and them saying "eh, it might work" doesn't sound like the right choice to make from the begining.

FWIW a beehive with the same specs as that 977 could easily control the valve, getting one is not as easy. Any engineer should be able to readily connect F=MA in this situation, and when you save 50% of the mass of the spring in that equation it's easy to see how much less force you will need given the same accelerations. A beehive with 100lbs seated can control the valve comparable to a 180lbs seated dual spring in certain situations.

The 943's are great in terms that they have a much higher quality spring wire and more pressure, but in the end I think that extra pressure will also kill you. Lots of engine revolutions, lots of spring pressure, low quality lifters and never checking the system to see if lash changes don't add up to parts longevity. Not to mention letting the block lifter bores stay at the stock locations and angles which most likely are wrong.

I agree you gotta pay to play, but you also should have a matched system.

I like this solution the best....

"I just replaced them with PSI max life CT1225 springs. (set up at 190/415) Hopefully they fare better."

I don't care if PSI made the springs, but those pressures look much more inline with what you need for the setup to live and not have float.

I hope nobody takes this bad, but these are my thoughts on this old thread.

Bret