350350

EDIT Please Read First EDIT

I want to make the purposes of this post clear. It's partly for fun, that's the part where I tell you about how stupid I was by setting myself/car on fire with poor judgement when using my torch. It's mostly for information about GM fuel lines...

1) I set myself, my car, and everything within 4 feet of the driver's rear fenderwell on fire completely because I was in a hurry and didn't take time to look carefully at everything nearby when I was using the torch. That's the funny part! (Being on fire is only funny LATER, after you're no longer on fire!!! )

2) Mostly though, what I really want to know is, why does my car ('95 Z28 M6) have plastic fuel lines that light up like bottle rockets??? I never had any problems with my TPI setup that used a steel/rubber high pressure line combination... The plastic lines seem to be incredibly weak, and you could problably twist or pinch one in half if you tried... (Which I will try after I get new ones installed...)

If you don't enjoy reading about others' self-confessed stupidity, and/or you don't know why GM uses plastic fuel lines, please move on if you only want to condescend or argue with your reply.

It's a really good story, heck, when is a dude being on fire ever NOT a good story???

EDIT Please Read First EDIT


The whole story is below... I certainly should have been more careful, yada yada yada...

But here's what worries me... My TPI had steel lines everywhere, and only a few places where flex was necessary did it have heavy rubber high pressure line. This seemed to be a great plan, and it worked great in not only 3rd Gens, but in the 4x4 I swapped the TPI into and abused for 7 years on the trails.

I learned yesterday that GM decided that 4th Gens should have paper-thin, highly flammable plastic fuel lines in the most vulnerable locations possible, like under the hood where they cross the gap above the exhaust manifold and in the rear where the main feed line runs from the tank to the fuel filter...

What in all that is Holy??? The majority of the lines are metal, but the most vulnerable areas are made out of straws???

I'm tempted to replace everything with steel and high pressure braided rubber, or even braided stainless steel. Now that I've had reason to inspect the plastic lines carefully, I can't see them holding up to even a minor pinch or a nick from a sharp tool, an accidental poorly placed knee or foot, etc.

What's up with this? Anybody want to share a similar opinion or explain to me what kind of exotic and space age technology has been created in these paper thin plastic lines that somehow makes them better than steel?

There has to be some reason (not necessarily a good one...) that one of the three lines coming out of the tank is plastic while the other two are metal... The vapor line is metal!!!

The local dealership wanted $101 for the 'assembly' of lines, whatever that includes. Jason Cromer has them on the way for $55 plus shipping.

After I test the old lines, I'll be selling large bendy straws with rubber bands to use as clamps, all at a greatly reduced price from what the local dealership will want. I'll even clear coat the assembly in order to give it some sort of vague flame retardance.

Paul 'X'

Story Follows:

This Damned Immortality is Going to get Me Killed Someday...

Started the day off with a real bang. Had high hopes of getting the Camaro running today.

Had a couple of exhaust studs that I needed to heat with the torch, as well as a couple of brake fittings before I could make any more progress. Fired up the torch, and got busy on that first big brake fitting inside the driver's side rear fender well. Car up on jacks and wheels off. Boy standing safely nearby for 'torching'.

So I'm almost ready to pull the heat on the fitting and a nearby wire loom starts to melt and smoke. I figure it can take one or two more seconds, after all it has one of those corrugated plastic tubes over it.

Then, all hell broke loose! The next thing I know, the entire inner fender well, my arm, and the ground under the car were all on fire. Being on fire really sucks. I quickly realized that there was fuel spraying out of the 'wire loom' about 4 feet and wasn't showing any signs of stopping soon.

Now, I have to break from the story to tell you a little about myself. I've been around a while, pretty much seen and done it all, and I can't remember the last time that something frightened, startled, excited, or in any other way got my heart pumping faster than it pumps when I'm asleep. Being on fire is no exception.

Any person with any amount of sense at all would have grabbed the Boy and ran for dear life. The car is insured, it's replaceable, and at this point I'd be in pretty good shape if it got hauled off and insurance had to buy me another one anyway... But like I said, that would be a person with any real sense, or a person with a 'fight or flight' instinct. I have neither.

I did have the sense to turn the torch off and toss it in the shrubs nearby, and as I wrapped my arm in my shirt to put it out, I told the Boy to run. I then sat there and watched the fire to determine the best way put it out. Still spraying fuel which was still creating a larger fire.

I quickly saw that the fuel line was very close to the tank, and if/when it ran out of fuel it might very well allow a flame backdraft into the tank and 'shaboom!', we'd once again test my immortality. I looked the other way down the fuel line and realized that this was the very same line that I had tried to siphon fuel out of last weekend, and couldn't get a drop from. So there wasn't much fuel in there. So I pulled my shirt off and wrapped it around the fuel line, tucking it in tightly between the car and the line. This stopped the gusher, but the inner fender well and the ground under the tank and line were still on fire. And I now was naked from the waste up.

I ran to the other side of the car and grabbed all the rags I had laying around, and returned to find that I had to use them to wrap around my now gas-soaked shirt, since it was now on fire although it was stopping the fuel from spraying everywhere. I put the ground fire out by kicking the gravel away, and most of the fender well had burned itself out by now with no more gusher to feed it.

I then sat there surveying the mess, realizing that I could very well have blown the whole thing to smitherines, and wondered yet again why I hadn't just let the thing burn. I'm not THAT sentimental about vehicles. Normally I have several fire extinguishers at-the-ready in the garage, but unfortunately this is a driveway project, so I was ill-prepared.

Damage appeared to be limited to the one PLASTIC fuel line that had burned, the plastic corrugated tubing that was hiding it, the pelt on my arm, and my t-shirt. Also some cardboard that I was laying on.

About then the Boy came running out of the house with Mom, yelling, "Dad's on Fire, Dad's on Fire!", and Mom could still see the lingering smoke, although I was clearly no longer on fire. Pissed off and waiting to make sure no new fires sprung up, but no longer on fire.

The Wife saw the look of disgust on my face, looked at the mess of burnt cardboard and rags on the ground, and said, "Set it back on fire and come in for lunch." Then walked back in the house. The Boy stayed outside to work with me, but asked, "Are you done burning things now Dad?"

Ahhh... Father's Day. What a better way to spend the day...

Lessons Learned...

Keep a fire extinguisher strapped to your torch.
Immortality doesn't make it any less painful to be on fire.
If the entire underside of your fenderwell is on fire, and is being fed by a steady streaming spray of fuel, have the damn good sense to run for your freakin' life!
At least '95 and newer GM vehicles don't use high pressure rubber fuel line anymore. They use very thin-walled and highly flammable plastic fuel line!!! It looks exactly like a really big plastic vacuum line. (You know the kind of plastic line that always got brittle under your hood and you had to replace it with rubber...)

Paul 'X'

eric9c1

hahahaha I am sorry about what happened, but now looking back and with your excellent writing skills the story made me laugh. I could imagine my dad out there "God damn piece of f&cking ****!!" and getting pissed, but instead of letting it burn he just does what you did.

Sorry to hear what happened, atleast doesn't appear to be any real damage. I am going to check the fuel lines on my car to be sure now. I got a 94 Caprice 9c1.. hopefully not the same problem but better safe than sorry, especially how much my buddy smokes around the car while working on it!

shoebox

Yep, carelessness will get you every time. Why do people blame the manufacturer for their own inattention?

There have been a few people where careless has left them carless. I guess you came out lucky.

Nylon fuel lines are used when breakage from fatigue is a factor. They are not meant to withstand an onslaught by a torch.

So, if that "wire loom" was really holding wires, it was no big deal to go ahead and continue and let is smoke and burn while you finished up? Who does that to their car?

350350

Yep, I stated that my own carelessness got me into trouble at the very start of the post. If that upset you, why did you bother to read the rest of the post, then reply with nothing constructive? Do you feel big, smart, and important now?

I never blamed GM for foolishly setting my car on fire. I think if you read my post again you'll see that I in fact repeatedly take full responsibility for setting my own car on fire by my own carelessness.

My post is about why GM went from a good fuel line system to a (seemingly) poor one, not why they didn't make the fuel system resistant to an idiot with a torch. (Me being the idiot, as stated above.)

Carelessness and luck have nothing to do with it. I'm immortal and I don't panic. Thus I live to tell good stories like this and share them with others for a good laugh. Unfortunately there are always a percentage like you...

Egads! Not the rolling of the eyes!!! I'm almost as broken up about it now as I was in Junior High!!! Oh, if I could only rekindle the powers of the Jr. High Bully to fight you off...

Again, since your reading skills aren't that sharp, I'll try to spell it out again. (Please read slowly.) I'm not asking why the torch destroyed the fuel line... It would have destroyed a rubber or steel line... I'm asking why the plastic line has replaced (from what I can tell) the much better steel/rubber line setup. Since you had no answer for that question, I can only assume you are simply starved for attention. I have no more to give you. Go Away.

Since the steel fuel return line and the steel vapor line run in the same loom with the plastic fuel feed line, explain to me how fatigue is an issue for one of 3 lines that run the exact path, genius.

Since I had already melted it, and I have a huge box of it to replace it with, it seemed to be no problem to fix an 8" piece of corrugated plastic tubing...

Obviously, me. I don't have a 4-Bay shop with 2 hoists and every tool ever made by GM. Sometimes there are casualties, and less than noble procedures get used out of frustration. I'm not perfect. No matter what you break, it can be fixed.

Shoebox, until now I had a lot of respect for you. You've answered a lot of questions for me and I've used your tech pages a lot. I've found mistakes in your web site, but for the most part you know what you're doing. I had no idea you were one of those that liked to post a reply for no other reason than to bash somebody.

I'm not the average idiot and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude. No matter how good you are or how helpful you can be, how long you've been around here, or how many kittens you've saved from trees, I won't tolerate anyone giving me attitude. I wrote this post for 2 reasons:

1) To give everyone a laugh over my stupidity, and
2) To hopefully understand why GM went to plastic fuel lines.

You were helpful with neither of the above, and took the opportunity to toss out attitude. If you do a search on my posts, I doubt that you'll find any of my posts or replies that put people down regardless of how stupid of a question or mistake they made. One of the reasons I don't come here as often as I do other boards is that there are too many people here looking for an argument rather than a discussion.

You've got more class than this Shoebox. I'm sad to see your standards slip.

Paul 'X'

shoebox

I guess you missed my answer (oh, and "please read slowly")

As far as only one line not being steel in some places, the line from the pump is the only one under high pressure.

You opened yourself up for ridicule with that huge post. I was just giving you the attention that it looked like you wanted.

You don't think your thread title "Paper Thin Plastic Fuel Lines... Great Idea!!!" is hinting that you think GM is somewhat to blame? That's the way I saw it.

I get a little cranky sometimes and don't usually post controversial things. I guess it's from reading so many posts over time. I should have kept my keyboard shut. Sorry that you are offended.


BTW, if you (or anyone) see an inaccuracy in my site, please tell me about it.

350350

I guess you missed my gaping hole in your answer...

Also, the 1 plastic line of the 3 that come from the tank and go to the engine compartment IS the feed line. The return line and the vapor lines are metal. I'm assuming that since the plastic line goes directly from the top of the tank to the fuel filter, it's gotta be the main feed. Why wouldn't the most pressurized lin in the system be metal? The vapor line, if any, should be the one to go cheap on and put in plastic.

And Yes, I did open myself up to ridicule. Good Natured fun and I thought I spelled it out pretty clear that I knew what I did was stupid. I added some special lines in the original post as to not confuse the humor-impaired. I don't need anyone's attitude.

This is why I don't visit CamaroSS.com even a fraction of the time I used to. I mostly post straight forward tech questions and that's it. The 4x4 board I visit is more of a community and most people have been there long enough to know each others' personalities. I posted the same story there, and the post now has 3 pages of replies, all with good humored responses and some much more technical insight into the plastic fuel lines. Not a single "rolleyes".

Life is short Dude, Relax.

Paul 'IX'

350350

350350

Hey Man, I'm cranky tonight too... I want to apologize. I guess I was trying to say that regardless of the torch incident, I'm still afraid of the thin plastic fuel line.

Can we kiss and make up? (No Tongues Though!)

Paul 'X'

n2ceptor

I dont have an answer to your question about the fuel lines.....Its probably a cost and fatique issue...

But I usually go to the source for an answer.....

http://www.gm.com/gmcomjsp/contactus/

Hope this helps...

shoebox

We're cool. Heck, who knows the answers to all this stuff? It ain't me.

robss96dcm

I think the biggest reason is cost. lot less to manufacture,bend and install. I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. living and working on cars in the rust belt, no more leaking rotted out fuel lines. now they just need something for the brakelines.

grygst76

I did just about the same thing except I lit my nephew on fire Then I see all that entails replacing this wonderful "unrepairable fuel line" and I just bought some steel inserts and clamps and mickey moused it back together! I will be replacing it with braided SS as soon as I get the nerve to start. Yup, when you have a return line peeing fuel and it hits a spark plug; all H E Double hockey stick breaks loose!!!