Please help...PCM coolant temp sensor reads different from gauge
04-21-2003, 05:42 PM
#1
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Texorado
Posts: 226
Please help...PCM coolant temp sensor reads different from gauge
I have been having an overheating problem lately and I just scanned the car and I found that the PCM coolant temp sensor reads much lower than the gauge in the car.
I replaced the gauge sensor yesterday (the one in the head) but it still reads much hotter. My gauge will say 210*F while the PCM says 177*F. Could the gauge be off or the pcm?
If the gauge is wrong it will solve many problems such as why my fans aren't coming on or why the coolant isn't circulating.
I replaced the gauge sensor yesterday (the one in the head) but it still reads much hotter. My gauge will say 210*F while the PCM says 177*F. Could the gauge be off or the pcm?
If the gauge is wrong it will solve many problems such as why my fans aren't coming on or why the coolant isn't circulating.
04-22-2003, 12:09 PM
#3
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Texorado
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I don't think the coolant is circulating at all. I shut my car off when the gauge gets close to the mark before the red but according to my pcm the temp isnt even to 180* by then, so therefore the thermostat wouldn't even be open to circulate the coolant.
My replacement sensor was a Wells from Autozone. I looked on their website and they gave me what is called a temperature switch, is this the right part? I talked with the guy there for a while and he swears up and down that this is the right part, but he also swears that the temp sensor is in the intake.
My replacement sensor was a Wells from Autozone. I looked on their website and they gave me what is called a temperature switch, is this the right part? I talked with the guy there for a while and he swears up and down that this is the right part, but he also swears that the temp sensor is in the intake.
04-22-2003, 12:20 PM
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oakdale MN
Posts: 241
Check the wire going to the senser in the head, if it's laying on the header or rubbed onto something causing the wire to be grounding somewhere along the way the guage will read high. I f you ground the connector (wire) it will peg the guage. Just a thought......
04-22-2003, 12:52 PM
#6
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carnutz: The wire looks good.
anaik: I guess I'm just assuming the WP sensor is right cause I would make the most sense of everything if the other sensor was wrong. It would explain why the coolant isn't circulating and why almost no pressure is building up in the radiator.
I can let the car heat up almost to the red according to the gauge and then open the radiator without worrying. If the engine really was overheating wouldn't the radiator be spewing fluid everywhere?
Thanks for the ideas guys, keep 'em coming.
anaik: I guess I'm just assuming the WP sensor is right cause I would make the most sense of everything if the other sensor was wrong. It would explain why the coolant isn't circulating and why almost no pressure is building up in the radiator.
I can let the car heat up almost to the red according to the gauge and then open the radiator without worrying. If the engine really was overheating wouldn't the radiator be spewing fluid everywhere?
Thanks for the ideas guys, keep 'em coming.
04-22-2003, 01:00 PM
#7
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Friendswood, TX, USA
Posts: 3,769
It sounds like both your temp sensor are working fine. They are supposed to be different. As far as the temp sensor in the intake that is air tempature. I would start checking the rad and pump flow. Sounds like somethings clogged or broke.
Sounding more and more like your thermostats stuck.
Sounding more and more like your thermostats stuck.
Last edited by Z28SORR; 04-22-2003 at 01:03 PM.
04-22-2003, 01:04 PM
#8
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cleveland,OH
Posts: 1,335
Originally posted by Camaro37
carnutz: The wire looks good.
anaik: I guess I'm just assuming the WP sensor is right cause I would make the most sense of everything if the other sensor was wrong. It would explain why the coolant isn't circulating and why almost no pressure is building up in the radiator.
I can let the car heat up almost to the red according to the gauge and then open the radiator without worrying. If the engine really was overheating wouldn't the radiator be spewing fluid everywhere?
Thanks for the ideas guys, keep 'em coming.
carnutz: The wire looks good.
anaik: I guess I'm just assuming the WP sensor is right cause I would make the most sense of everything if the other sensor was wrong. It would explain why the coolant isn't circulating and why almost no pressure is building up in the radiator.
I can let the car heat up almost to the red according to the gauge and then open the radiator without worrying. If the engine really was overheating wouldn't the radiator be spewing fluid everywhere?
Thanks for the ideas guys, keep 'em coming.
04-22-2003, 01:11 PM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Madison, AL
Posts: 101
Here a nice write up on it:
This is the temperature of the coolant, in degrees Fahrenheit. It is measured by a sensor in the water pump housing. This is NOT the same sensor that supplies the temperature to your dash mounted temperature gauge. The gauge sensor is located in the driver's side head, between #1 and #3 cylinders (under the exhaust manifold). You may find a 10-15 degree difference between the dash gauge and the ScanMaster. Remember, the PCM only sees the same reading as the ScanMaster, so that is the temperature it is going to look at to turn your fans on and off, modify timing, etc.
At COLD startup, your CLT should be close to the temperature of the outside air. It will start to rise immediately. At 180 degrees F (or 160 deg F, if you have changed your thermostat) you might see the temperature stop increasing for a while. Then if you let it sit and idle, in hot weather, the CLT can reach the fan switch temperature, in excess of 210 degrees F. Watch the temperature drop as the fans run, and note the temperature at which the fans turn off. The CLT will cycle between these two temperatures in stop-and-go traffic, but on the open road, at 50 MPH or so, your CLT should start to approach your 180 deg thermostat temp, or in the case of a 160 deg. 'stat, maybe run at 172-175 degrees F.
This is taken from http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/ScanMast.htm
This is the temperature of the coolant, in degrees Fahrenheit. It is measured by a sensor in the water pump housing. This is NOT the same sensor that supplies the temperature to your dash mounted temperature gauge. The gauge sensor is located in the driver's side head, between #1 and #3 cylinders (under the exhaust manifold). You may find a 10-15 degree difference between the dash gauge and the ScanMaster. Remember, the PCM only sees the same reading as the ScanMaster, so that is the temperature it is going to look at to turn your fans on and off, modify timing, etc.
At COLD startup, your CLT should be close to the temperature of the outside air. It will start to rise immediately. At 180 degrees F (or 160 deg F, if you have changed your thermostat) you might see the temperature stop increasing for a while. Then if you let it sit and idle, in hot weather, the CLT can reach the fan switch temperature, in excess of 210 degrees F. Watch the temperature drop as the fans run, and note the temperature at which the fans turn off. The CLT will cycle between these two temperatures in stop-and-go traffic, but on the open road, at 50 MPH or so, your CLT should start to approach your 180 deg thermostat temp, or in the case of a 160 deg. 'stat, maybe run at 172-175 degrees F.
This is taken from http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/ScanMast.htm
04-22-2003, 01:51 PM
#15
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: O'fallon, mo
Posts: 236
mine did the same thing after my header install. i broke the sensor in the head and put a new one in and it all started. i went to gm and got a dual purpose sender for the water pump and all is well now
Several people with LT1/LT4 powered vehicles have noticed that the temperature gauge reading seems to fluctuate greatly, depending primarily on whether the vehicle is moving or not. It has also been noticed that the PCM indicated engine temperature does not always agree with what the gauge shows, leading many to believe that their instrument cluster temperature gauge is inaccurate or faulty. I can assure you that in most cases the temperature indicated by the gauge is absolutely and totally accurate, for the POSITION on the engine at which the gauge sending unit is MOUNTED!!!
To understand this, first note that there are two temperature sending units on the LT1/LT4, one for the gauge and one for the PCM. The one for the gauge is mounted in the side of one of the cylinder heads, while the PCM sending unit is mounted on the front of the engine directly in the water pump. B/D-cars (Impala, Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood) and Y-cars (Corvette) have the gauge sender installed in a tapped hole in the rear of the RH cylinder head, between the #6 and #8 spark plugs. F-cars (Camaro, Firebird) have the gauge sending unit mounted in a tapped hole in the front of the LH cylinder head, between the #1 and #3 spark plugs.
Now remember that this engine is reverse flow cooled. This means that cold engine coolant entering the engine from the radiator is directed to the heads first, which is exactly why the gauge sending unit reads low compared to what the PCM sending unit sees. The PCM sending unit sees actual engine coolant temperature, and is not hit by the flow of cold coolant directly from the radiator.
If there is a problem with the gauge at all, it is certainly NOT that it is inaccurate. The gauge is perfectly accurate, but the SENDING UNIT for the gauge is mounted in the WRONG PLACE to get a "correct" reading. Unfortunately there are no other tapped holes in the water jacket to mount it unless you drill and tap another location. There is a tapped and plugged hole in the opposite cylinder head, but that would offer the same gauge readings, in fact it might read even lower temperatures since the tapped hole in the LH head it is mounted more towards the front of the block, closer to where the coolant first enters the heads from the radiator.
I have verified with scan tools which can directly read the PCM indicated temperature, as well as a digital Cyberdyne gauge sending unit mounted in the stock gauge sending unit location, that the two stock temperature sending units (gauge and PCM) will read temperatures as much as 60 degrees different while moving at high speeds on a cool night. If you stop and let the car idle long enough, eventually the radiator coolant temperature in the head equals what the actual coolant temperature in the block is, and both readings are relatively the same. As soon as you start moving, the temperature read at the gauge sending unit in the head will drop rapidly, however the actual engine temperature, and that which is sensed by the PCM sending unit, remains about 10 degrees above the thermostat setting.
Note that you cannot run both the gauge and the PCM off of the same sending unit. The gauge sender is a simple one wire sender where the body is grounded to the engine block. I believe it runs on 12v through the gauge and sender to ground. The PCM sender is a two-wire sender with a 5v signal and a digital PCM ground (not chassis ground). The gauge cannot be run off of this sender without messing it or the PCM up.
In any case, this anomaly CAN be corrected, in fact I have known about this "problem" for several years now, and have intended to correct it all along. Now I will finally be getting around to it due to my upcoming LT4 engine installation.
The proper way to correct this temperature reading anomaly is to mount the gauge sending unit in the water pump housing, in the same water passage as the PCM sender is now. There are two ways to correct the problem. One would be to drill and tap a hole in one of the existing unused sending unit bosses in the water pump to mount the gauge sending unit in the same water passage as the PCM sending unit is located. With the gauge sending unit in the water pump, instead of in the LH cylinder head, the gauge will now read correctly in concert with the actual engine temperature, which is also the temperature the PCM sees. This method requires that a proper sized hole be drilled, tapped, and then the gauge sender can be installed. Then the existing sender wire must be lengthened and re-routed over to the new location.
A more elegant method of correcting this problem would be to simply replace the existing PCM sender with a new dual purpose sender that GM has recently been offering on other applications. This is a new GM 3-wire sending unit which includes both the PCM and Gauge senders in one unit, and which installs in the existing PCM sensor location.
GM has begun using a 3-wire dual purpose sender on some new engines. It combines both the PCM and gauge senders in one unit. This is ideal as no additional holes will have to be drilled or tapped, this new dual purpose sender can replace the existing PCM sender.
Here's the information on the 3 terminal coolant temperature sensor.
Part No Description Cost
10096181 PCM/Gauge sending unit $14.81
12102748 Connector pigtail (incl. terminals) $17.29
This connector pigtail is a complete connector with terminals and wires installed, which would have to be spliced to the existing wires. Alternatively, you can get just the connector shell and terminals, which you could crimp onto the existing wires. Unfortunately most dealers are not able to get Packard electric parts through GM.
Part No Description
12078090 Packard connector including the seals
12103881 Terminals (three required
Another alternative would be to get the connector and terminals plus wire from a junkyard. It's the same connector that is used on the throttle position sensor of the LT1 and many other engines.
The new sending unit is wired as follows:
Pin A = Black, PCM sensor ground
Pin B = Yellow, coolant signal to PCM
Pin C = Dark Green, to Gauge
Several people with LT1/LT4 powered vehicles have noticed that the temperature gauge reading seems to fluctuate greatly, depending primarily on whether the vehicle is moving or not. It has also been noticed that the PCM indicated engine temperature does not always agree with what the gauge shows, leading many to believe that their instrument cluster temperature gauge is inaccurate or faulty. I can assure you that in most cases the temperature indicated by the gauge is absolutely and totally accurate, for the POSITION on the engine at which the gauge sending unit is MOUNTED!!!
To understand this, first note that there are two temperature sending units on the LT1/LT4, one for the gauge and one for the PCM. The one for the gauge is mounted in the side of one of the cylinder heads, while the PCM sending unit is mounted on the front of the engine directly in the water pump. B/D-cars (Impala, Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood) and Y-cars (Corvette) have the gauge sender installed in a tapped hole in the rear of the RH cylinder head, between the #6 and #8 spark plugs. F-cars (Camaro, Firebird) have the gauge sending unit mounted in a tapped hole in the front of the LH cylinder head, between the #1 and #3 spark plugs.
Now remember that this engine is reverse flow cooled. This means that cold engine coolant entering the engine from the radiator is directed to the heads first, which is exactly why the gauge sending unit reads low compared to what the PCM sending unit sees. The PCM sending unit sees actual engine coolant temperature, and is not hit by the flow of cold coolant directly from the radiator.
If there is a problem with the gauge at all, it is certainly NOT that it is inaccurate. The gauge is perfectly accurate, but the SENDING UNIT for the gauge is mounted in the WRONG PLACE to get a "correct" reading. Unfortunately there are no other tapped holes in the water jacket to mount it unless you drill and tap another location. There is a tapped and plugged hole in the opposite cylinder head, but that would offer the same gauge readings, in fact it might read even lower temperatures since the tapped hole in the LH head it is mounted more towards the front of the block, closer to where the coolant first enters the heads from the radiator.
I have verified with scan tools which can directly read the PCM indicated temperature, as well as a digital Cyberdyne gauge sending unit mounted in the stock gauge sending unit location, that the two stock temperature sending units (gauge and PCM) will read temperatures as much as 60 degrees different while moving at high speeds on a cool night. If you stop and let the car idle long enough, eventually the radiator coolant temperature in the head equals what the actual coolant temperature in the block is, and both readings are relatively the same. As soon as you start moving, the temperature read at the gauge sending unit in the head will drop rapidly, however the actual engine temperature, and that which is sensed by the PCM sending unit, remains about 10 degrees above the thermostat setting.
Note that you cannot run both the gauge and the PCM off of the same sending unit. The gauge sender is a simple one wire sender where the body is grounded to the engine block. I believe it runs on 12v through the gauge and sender to ground. The PCM sender is a two-wire sender with a 5v signal and a digital PCM ground (not chassis ground). The gauge cannot be run off of this sender without messing it or the PCM up.
In any case, this anomaly CAN be corrected, in fact I have known about this "problem" for several years now, and have intended to correct it all along. Now I will finally be getting around to it due to my upcoming LT4 engine installation.
The proper way to correct this temperature reading anomaly is to mount the gauge sending unit in the water pump housing, in the same water passage as the PCM sender is now. There are two ways to correct the problem. One would be to drill and tap a hole in one of the existing unused sending unit bosses in the water pump to mount the gauge sending unit in the same water passage as the PCM sending unit is located. With the gauge sending unit in the water pump, instead of in the LH cylinder head, the gauge will now read correctly in concert with the actual engine temperature, which is also the temperature the PCM sees. This method requires that a proper sized hole be drilled, tapped, and then the gauge sender can be installed. Then the existing sender wire must be lengthened and re-routed over to the new location.
A more elegant method of correcting this problem would be to simply replace the existing PCM sender with a new dual purpose sender that GM has recently been offering on other applications. This is a new GM 3-wire sending unit which includes both the PCM and Gauge senders in one unit, and which installs in the existing PCM sensor location.
GM has begun using a 3-wire dual purpose sender on some new engines. It combines both the PCM and gauge senders in one unit. This is ideal as no additional holes will have to be drilled or tapped, this new dual purpose sender can replace the existing PCM sender.
Here's the information on the 3 terminal coolant temperature sensor.
Part No Description Cost
10096181 PCM/Gauge sending unit $14.81
12102748 Connector pigtail (incl. terminals) $17.29
This connector pigtail is a complete connector with terminals and wires installed, which would have to be spliced to the existing wires. Alternatively, you can get just the connector shell and terminals, which you could crimp onto the existing wires. Unfortunately most dealers are not able to get Packard electric parts through GM.
Part No Description
12078090 Packard connector including the seals
12103881 Terminals (three required
Another alternative would be to get the connector and terminals plus wire from a junkyard. It's the same connector that is used on the throttle position sensor of the LT1 and many other engines.
The new sending unit is wired as follows:
Pin A = Black, PCM sensor ground
Pin B = Yellow, coolant signal to PCM
Pin C = Dark Green, to Gauge