Jose, hey may I didn't mean to offend you. And Bunker: the difference between 269/210 vs. 250/189 could be in the different flow benches the two shops have. FYI: GTP has been accused before of having an optimistic flow bench. I'm sorry you guys spent that much money on a your heads. When I went with a friend to Ed Wrights last year Ed told me that some GTP heads make really good power and some make mediocre power. Jose, I think 7.9 at 87 is really good for a n/a LT1. However, judging from what Bunkers's GTP heads flowed your cam isn't the right setup. You'd be better off with a 224/230 dur.@.050, .536/.544 lift w/1.6rr, ground on a 112lsa with a 108centerline.

Justin

 

By the looks of the 1/4 mile times Blksunshine, the old single plane cam is holding true to the results of the guys around here who had them. They seem OK out of the hole, but then they fall off on the big end. There just isn't enough exaust flow. A 6-10 degree split Would probablly help alot. The XE 230/236 is a nice upgrade from what you have. Anything with a split will help.

 

I don't agree. That's an error of 7%. Either they need a new flowbench or they're bumping their numbers.

Lackluster performance? Well, there are literally tons of variables but my guess is.... poor uniformity throughout the port and/or ports which are too low in velocity to support a small cam. My suggestion... have someone check the ports. You'd probably find quite a bit of power with a little welding.

Chuck Riddeck
Progressive Race Engine Development

 

Believe Chuck. He obviously doesnt need anyone to back him up, but for what it's worth, on most flowbenches, under the same test conditions, if it doesnt flow within a couple percent.. something may be up. Our stuff has been put on other benches, and it's always been within .5-1.5% of what we got. Obviously, alot of shops are boosting numbers.. on paper, or just knobbing it up on the bench.

 

nighttrain I have had this combo for about 2years now.

96vortech no problem, and yes I am planning on a cam change.

but first I want to see how the car will perform with some E.T. streets.

I have thought about the 230/236 or cc306. but still unsure

 

Yeah im the guy that got bunkers ****ty heads..Only was turning 113mph in the quarter and only dynoed 370rw Took them off and had them flowed which I shoulda dont in the FIRST place..they flowed 260/180..thats 19cfm less on the intake side and over 25cfm less on the exhaust side..Letz just say I wont have anymore GTP heads on my lt1..I even took my heads to Craig and he changed the valve springs on them for me and I asked if he would flow them..well what do you think he said.."well, ummm, we would have to clean them really good and get them spotless before we do it" I could tell he didnt want to do them..

Cody

 

Not sure what brand of Flow bench GTP has but I was told that it flows lower than a Superflow so he adds a % to the #s to make the #s jive. I think he may need to adjust his % he is adding or compare the bench's actual #s to a correctly calibrated Superflow.

Blksunshine- if ya ever remove heads bring em by and I'll flow em for ya.

NightTrain66

 

Oh, I didn't know. I always hear you guys say flow benches vary. I didn't know it was that close. My mistake.

Justin

 

One other thing to consider on the exhaust flow, was it done with a pipe? A pipe will usually show a little better number than without, so if GTP did it with a pipe, and you didn't, that would explain the huge variance in numbers on the exhaust side.

 

I think you meant to say 250/180 yeah Kmook told me that Cody, but that wasn't my fault since I was lied to by GTP, & I told you the numbers I got for MPH but that isn't the case, I can't belive that he lied to me & to you, Also I can honestly say that GTP doesn't know anything about porting since even I belived the flow of 210 on the exhaust considering the darn things were so huge that you could see the header bolts from the exhaust port, aparently all of his heads are like that, he ports on the sides & leave the top alone? WTF is that, I never knew that before but now that I know a thing or two about porting my own heads I can honestly say that GTP heads are just pretty & can't make power, he also makes the intake wide & doesn't do much to the top of the port, isn't that were all the HP is ? man ohh man... & he lied to Cody telling him that the heads were messed up? I can't belive that, they came off my car the same day I shipped them if I can clearly remember, either way lets not turn this into a GTP bash post, there are lots of those but I have to say that I am more then impressed with PRO-PERFORMANCE heads & the actual effort they put in, unlike GTP who just ports wherever & sand the heads & pays the 2$/hour to a 10 year old kid to polish his heads

 

Impressed with PP and the effort they put forth... PP doesnt exist, and hence.. there's no effort. Unless you call driving to someone else's shop and transporting heads effort...

Not to jump on you.. but what exactly makes you say that? Did you not read the other 100 comments? ... Arent you that guy... who way back when... used an orbital sander to clean the deck surface... or.. maybe not.

While im NOT a fan of GTP, simply b/c the prices are beyond outrageous, and the work isnt anything special, they probably are capable of putting out something respectable. PP isnt from the godawful attempts we've seen. GTP stuff flows low it seems b/c they dont want to spend the time eeking more air through the port, when most people will just bolt it on, feel its faster, and be satisfied. Of course they cant tell you what it really flows, b/c then people who only care about peak flow numbers wouldn't buy it. Another problem is liability.. I doubt they spend time measuring thicknesses (this is why we have over 30hrs in each set), so they CANT safely push the limits of the casting without greatly increasing the risk that theyll hose (no pun intended) a customers engine. PP is 10x worse.. not only does the guy lie, but from what I've seen, he has absolutely NO idea what he's doing. At this point in time, I'm not sure if the guy is THAT ignorant, or THAT much of a crook. The 20yr old tech & speculation in publically available texts will garner better results... and that is a sad statement.

Honestly, if a pseudo-company has a reputation for essentially ripping people off, then only an idiot would even consider allowing themselves to be taken advantage of. I suppose that is probably where the "A Fool and his Money" statement came from. I dont say that as a guy trying to sell you something either, I'm a consumer above all, and I've spent more $ than i "should" have on my ride too. There are literally hundreds of shops that can port a head to choose from. Choosing one who is a proven blatant liar, with unbelivably poor quality, AND the majority of their customers are upset b/c they were ripped off and smoked engines in some cases seems absolutely unthinkable to anyone with the slightest bit of common sense. Buyer beware is all I have to say.. educate yourself as a consumer and you'll undoubtedly come to the same conclusions people have outlined.

 

Unbelievable the amount of garbage PP and those associated w/them are capable of producing!! The heads are absolute garbage!! A local guy has already had one motor trashed by these heads...now, he has another set of PP "Stage 3" heads waiting to bolt on to his new shortblock for no other reason than the fact that PP refuses to correct the problem. Reimbursing him for the heads/components is the right thing to do...nothing of the sort has been proposed by PP. This is one case, but the story remains the same throughout numerous cases; garbage product - garbage service, with no intentions of doing the right thing.

 

If anyone ever wants their money back, they should INSIST that they get it. Not another set of heads, not a patch job on the existing heads..............but CASH BACK.
I have seen others post that the poprter gets about half the money. Not sure if that is true or not but i would want ALL of my money back not just the porters %. If they are unable to give ya ALL of your $ back ya need to get a lawyer. Not a TV guide lawyer, a real lawyer. Save all documents, receipts, e-mails, etc. and for the ones with destroyed motors keep those receipts as well. If the motor is not destroyed than keep receipts for oil, gaskets, etc and everything else that was wasted b/c of heads. If ANYONE is not willing to give back ALL of the money than let them know you will see em in court at which point you will be recieving $ for oil, gaskets, bottom end of motor (if needed) and court costs (yours and theirs). If they are still not interested ya will have to procede with the lawyer. It would be pretty open and shut as to who will be rewarded but it will take a little time and a retainer fee and a little out of pocket expense but in the end you would get it all back.

NightTrain66

 

Ohh please the day a lawyer will get involved with a civil matter? for all you know they don't have a business name & you can't sue them any other way but in civil court which will takes years.

The point is, the heads make power, & as for the sand paper that was when I started on this board I simply just asked if i can use sand paper which I never did to clean the block, whatever. Point is you run a risk everytime you mod you car, but I refuse to waste my money on pretty junk that makes absolutely no power. Its like some people on this board, they get thir pretty heads, so pretty they take 100 pics of them & post them for everyone to see, go to the track & go 109-110 mph with a hotcam, doesn't a hotcam alone do 109mph ? Hundreds of tunning hours later & still 110mph. That is what I call a ripoff not when an unfortunate thing happens, you always run into probs when you make big numbers, sure if we all wanted to stay safe we would never make the most power out of our engines.

 

However, Bunker... theyve yet to make any "big numbers" ... see the problem?

Heads that are on par with what most guys could do themselves in their garage... and numbers that are EASILY attainable without even coming close to cracking and breaking through... and then flat out lying about just about everything having to do with it...

The ignorance is compounded by the constant lying and inconsistence. The only consistent thing theyve done is prove that they're way way below par & unethical. Not to be too harsh, but if you'd actually purchase heads from two guys who dont know enough to matter about heads who're reselling junk from some backwoods guy working out of his garage.... well.. that's just plain moronic.

I suppose it doesnt matter too much... now that their CUSTOMERS have finally realized they got taken, and been nice enough to try to warn other people. This should, IMO, remove just about all doubt people had when a few of us called them on their BS... if you'd deal with them after this, you deserve what you get.. b/c as the saying goes, There's one born every minute .

-Phil